PhD and emplyment
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD?
Depends. Some think they are "overqualified" and will leave them for a real research job. I can say that the best candidate we hired at my old company was a fresh PhD from Mech Engineering; I had some difficulties convincing others in my team to hire him, but it turned out to be a very good decision after all - people with PhD degree are generally very smart and hard working, and these are good traits for programmers :)
I agree with that, though one must look at the PhD itself. Some universities award PhDs for nothing more than 100 page summerizations of things known in a field, this is true for Masters degrees too. Was it Masters by course work or research, if the prior I would not consider it worth the time. Also a person's thesis (PhD or Masters) may not end up being commented on in SA or Nature, but if you search for bib's of the person's papers and text and find no references thats another sign of a useless PhD. So lets assume you've determined the candidate worked on and produced a not so, how shall we put it, "interesting" PhD (again remember it doesn't have to be interesting to you), the next question you might ask is how long did they persist working on this mindless crap, 3 years 4 years? do you really want a software engineer that can't tell when to quit and start afresh or learn not to make major mistakes before they set out? Now does it matter if they have a PhD at all? The some of the places mentioned in this thread, MS research and google, there are people working and researching there that have not completed High-school education let alone university degrees, the only reason they work there is because they are naturally outstanding.
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I agree with that, though one must look at the PhD itself. Some universities award PhDs for nothing more than 100 page summerizations of things known in a field, this is true for Masters degrees too. Was it Masters by course work or research, if the prior I would not consider it worth the time. Also a person's thesis (PhD or Masters) may not end up being commented on in SA or Nature, but if you search for bib's of the person's papers and text and find no references thats another sign of a useless PhD. So lets assume you've determined the candidate worked on and produced a not so, how shall we put it, "interesting" PhD (again remember it doesn't have to be interesting to you), the next question you might ask is how long did they persist working on this mindless crap, 3 years 4 years? do you really want a software engineer that can't tell when to quit and start afresh or learn not to make major mistakes before they set out? Now does it matter if they have a PhD at all? The some of the places mentioned in this thread, MS research and google, there are people working and researching there that have not completed High-school education let alone university degrees, the only reason they work there is because they are naturally outstanding.
Reynolds Glisner wrote:
Was it Masters by course work or research
Thats something ive not really thought about. My masters is research based.
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD
The question is a bit of a waste of time as you will only get generalisations and / or specific anectdotes, neither of which is probably relevant. A PhD won't change who you are, if you are sharp and useful now, you still will be. It is part of the entry ticket to a category of jobs (academia, research positions in some large companies). It indicates an interest in research, but it is up to you whether you present at an interview as a boffin or as someone useful. It is also important to keep it in perspective and recognise that the outcome is usually that you will end up knowing absolutely everything about almost nothing (a generalisation!). It's only another piece of paper after all. I have one, proud of it, has been very useful in parts of my career, but it was more a rite of passage than a defining moment. If you want to do it, have a passion, the time and money, go for it. It is harder to do later.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I agree with that, though one must look at the PhD itself. Some universities award PhDs for nothing more than 100 page summerizations of things known in a field, this is true for Masters degrees too. Was it Masters by course work or research, if the prior I would not consider it worth the time. Also a person's thesis (PhD or Masters) may not end up being commented on in SA or Nature, but if you search for bib's of the person's papers and text and find no references thats another sign of a useless PhD. So lets assume you've determined the candidate worked on and produced a not so, how shall we put it, "interesting" PhD (again remember it doesn't have to be interesting to you), the next question you might ask is how long did they persist working on this mindless crap, 3 years 4 years? do you really want a software engineer that can't tell when to quit and start afresh or learn not to make major mistakes before they set out? Now does it matter if they have a PhD at all? The some of the places mentioned in this thread, MS research and google, there are people working and researching there that have not completed High-school education let alone university degrees, the only reason they work there is because they are naturally outstanding.
Reynolds Glisner wrote:
ou might ask is how long did they persist working on this mindless crap, 3 years 4 years?
This describes 99.999999 % of all enterprise applications / projects. Makes me glad I left that segment of our industry. :)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you want to do it then do it. Don't waste life chasing money; work hard doing what you enjoy.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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LOL - I have to admit, I am the same. Well, if they think their degree is all that matters, then I am wary.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Well, for what it's worth, far too many places are looking for that stupid piece of paper to get past a certain level. It's unfortunate, but true. Therefore, I'm working on my B.S. in IT right now, and I'll roll right into a Master's program in business right after. But it should be noted that I have many years of experience in the field without the "benefit" of a degree. I just think that the domain of IT in general is changing to become less the bunch of proudly self-taught mavericks that once filled the profession and more like everything else. It's a sad thing. As far as going for the doctorate, I would suggest getting out into the field and getting some practical experience before pursuing it. I think that your Master's won't hurt you, but it won't really help you more than the undergraduate degree for getting in the door somewhere. However, a Ph.D. without real-world experience to back it up would probably, as you suggested, make people think you're all about academia and theory, and that you might have an inflated opinion of what you can do. Get the practical hands-on time, then get your Ph.D. if you still want it.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
What do you guys think?
I am probably more bias than anyone here, but I will be brutally honest too. Know your stuff. If you don't know your stuff, then sure, go back for a second BS or MS, if you think you know your stuff, but aren't sure, go for the PhD and prove to yourself you know your stuff. Don't prove it to the school, they will be happy to get your money and give you the paper if you match the least qualifications for it. Prove a point to yourself, if it needs proving. To prove it to me on the other end of the table, you better have confidence in what you are able to do. You also better be comfortable with my lack of any degree. Now my employer loves degrees. 4 years experience or 1 degree (BS, MS, PhD each 4 years), but under contract we have to keep 75% degrees. The good news, one of you keeps one of me on staff. :) I have had more trouble with kids who think they know more than me because I don't have a degree than just degrees in general. We've only had one kid we had to fire because he didn't know how to work. He knew his stuff, we are usually pretty good about weeding out those, but he had only 3 months experience and multiple degrees. He came highly recommended. There are no guarantees for any of us on either side. Know your stuff and we won't have any problems. :) but that has nothing to do with any degrees.
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
What do you guys think?
I am probably more bias than anyone here, but I will be brutally honest too. Know your stuff. If you don't know your stuff, then sure, go back for a second BS or MS, if you think you know your stuff, but aren't sure, go for the PhD and prove to yourself you know your stuff. Don't prove it to the school, they will be happy to get your money and give you the paper if you match the least qualifications for it. Prove a point to yourself, if it needs proving. To prove it to me on the other end of the table, you better have confidence in what you are able to do. You also better be comfortable with my lack of any degree. Now my employer loves degrees. 4 years experience or 1 degree (BS, MS, PhD each 4 years), but under contract we have to keep 75% degrees. The good news, one of you keeps one of me on staff. :) I have had more trouble with kids who think they know more than me because I don't have a degree than just degrees in general. We've only had one kid we had to fire because he didn't know how to work. He knew his stuff, we are usually pretty good about weeding out those, but he had only 3 months experience and multiple degrees. He came highly recommended. There are no guarantees for any of us on either side. Know your stuff and we won't have any problems. :) but that has nothing to do with any degrees.
Well said. Some of my biggest issues with staff have been when they don't know what they don't know. Understanding the limits of one's knowledge is probably the most important thing to learn of all. This is one of the key things I look for during an interview.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you got a PHD common I need someone to dig some holes....Oh I guess you didn't mean Post Hole Diggers. Hmm my mistake....nevermind! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Go for your life. Don't worry about what the others say. People like Marc only taunts you because they’re jealous. If you really want a PhD do it for yourself forget the rest. You don’t need to put it in your résumé just keep it as a nice warm feeling for what you have achieved. I’m currently doing an EdD part time. Remember, you can’t be too qualified you can only be fully qualified. Some want to climb mountains – I want a doctorate. It’s as simple as that. May the knowledge be with you.
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Reynolds Glisner wrote:
Was it Masters by course work or research
Thats something ive not really thought about. My masters is research based.
I notice that you completing an honour’s year therefore it is by research.
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I've been in the same position as you. What I concluded was that if you love research, and don't care much about money1, then a PhD is the way to go. But if you love programming, then stop at a master. Companies will just hesitate to employ you. 1 Of course there is money in having a PhD. That is, if you are privately employed. During the time you are getting the PhD, you won't be earning much...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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If you got a PHD common I need someone to dig some holes....Oh I guess you didn't mean Post Hole Diggers. Hmm my mistake....nevermind! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD
The question is a bit of a waste of time as you will only get generalisations and / or specific anectdotes, neither of which is probably relevant. A PhD won't change who you are, if you are sharp and useful now, you still will be. It is part of the entry ticket to a category of jobs (academia, research positions in some large companies). It indicates an interest in research, but it is up to you whether you present at an interview as a boffin or as someone useful. It is also important to keep it in perspective and recognise that the outcome is usually that you will end up knowing absolutely everything about almost nothing (a generalisation!). It's only another piece of paper after all. I have one, proud of it, has been very useful in parts of my career, but it was more a rite of passage than a defining moment. If you want to do it, have a passion, the time and money, go for it. It is harder to do later.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
It will change the person for ever, for instants they will know more they did beforehand. They will have made an original contribution to the pool knowledge. They will be recognised in their field of expertise. It is not just another piece of paper it is a testimonial to their achievement. Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
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I think you mildly offended a PhD, judging by your vote. :laugh:
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
I guess I did? Can't take a joke, a poor one by looks of votes. :) Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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It will change the person for ever, for instants they will know more they did beforehand. They will have made an original contribution to the pool knowledge. They will be recognised in their field of expertise. It is not just another piece of paper it is a testimonial to their achievement. Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
baudwalker wrote:
It will change the person for ever
The real problem is that some people believe that.
baudwalker wrote:
Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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baudwalker wrote:
It will change the person for ever
The real problem is that some people believe that.
baudwalker wrote:
Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
The real problem is that some people believe that.
Only because it is true
cp9876 wrote:
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
I know my statement is correct. I am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands. Then why do a doctorate I hear you say...because I can, that's why
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I guess I did? Can't take a joke, a poor one by looks of votes. :) Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
Guess I must have, too - I got uni-voted. It's not that I think Ph.D's have no value, I just think that if your purpose in getting one is to get a top-notch job, it's important to get the real-world experience first unless you want to be restricted to certain specialized segments. If you pursue a Ph.D for your own satisfaction/pleasure/education, then obviously it's worth going for it. Just be prepared to hear things like "Don't you think you'd be bored with this?" or "Really, you're overqualified for this position" or "We can't afford to pay for a Ph.D in this position" and have good answers when you go after that first post-educational job. It's a form of reverse snobbery, I guess, but it absolutely happened to my cousin who made the choice to get his Ph.D before stepping into the real world. He had to convince employers that he really WASN'T looking for research jobs, he was okay with typical starting wages, and no, he wouldn't be any more bored than the other candidates. I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume, unless it's only a small part of the total filter. I would definitely think that 4 years of practical experience has at least equivalent value to a B.S. - you may not have all the breadth of skills you might pick up in college, but then, the college grad may not have the depth of practical knowledge the experienced person has, plus the experienced person has an actual track record. It's all relative.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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cp9876 wrote:
The real problem is that some people believe that.
Only because it is true
cp9876 wrote:
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
I know my statement is correct. I am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands. Then why do a doctorate I hear you say...because I can, that's why
baudwalker wrote:
cp9876 wrote: The real problem is that some people believe that. Only because it is true
Of course it will change you in the same way that any undertaking extending over a few years will. My point is that it won't necessarily change your usefulness for any employer.
baudwalker wrote:
am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands.
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
