PhD and emplyment
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
What do you guys think?
I am probably more bias than anyone here, but I will be brutally honest too. Know your stuff. If you don't know your stuff, then sure, go back for a second BS or MS, if you think you know your stuff, but aren't sure, go for the PhD and prove to yourself you know your stuff. Don't prove it to the school, they will be happy to get your money and give you the paper if you match the least qualifications for it. Prove a point to yourself, if it needs proving. To prove it to me on the other end of the table, you better have confidence in what you are able to do. You also better be comfortable with my lack of any degree. Now my employer loves degrees. 4 years experience or 1 degree (BS, MS, PhD each 4 years), but under contract we have to keep 75% degrees. The good news, one of you keeps one of me on staff. :) I have had more trouble with kids who think they know more than me because I don't have a degree than just degrees in general. We've only had one kid we had to fire because he didn't know how to work. He knew his stuff, we are usually pretty good about weeding out those, but he had only 3 months experience and multiple degrees. He came highly recommended. There are no guarantees for any of us on either side. Know your stuff and we won't have any problems. :) but that has nothing to do with any degrees.
Well said. Some of my biggest issues with staff have been when they don't know what they don't know. Understanding the limits of one's knowledge is probably the most important thing to learn of all. This is one of the key things I look for during an interview.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you got a PHD common I need someone to dig some holes....Oh I guess you didn't mean Post Hole Diggers. Hmm my mistake....nevermind! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Go for your life. Don't worry about what the others say. People like Marc only taunts you because they’re jealous. If you really want a PhD do it for yourself forget the rest. You don’t need to put it in your résumé just keep it as a nice warm feeling for what you have achieved. I’m currently doing an EdD part time. Remember, you can’t be too qualified you can only be fully qualified. Some want to climb mountains – I want a doctorate. It’s as simple as that. May the knowledge be with you.
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Reynolds Glisner wrote:
Was it Masters by course work or research
Thats something ive not really thought about. My masters is research based.
I notice that you completing an honour’s year therefore it is by research.
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I've been in the same position as you. What I concluded was that if you love research, and don't care much about money1, then a PhD is the way to go. But if you love programming, then stop at a master. Companies will just hesitate to employ you. 1 Of course there is money in having a PhD. That is, if you are privately employed. During the time you are getting the PhD, you won't be earning much...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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If you got a PHD common I need someone to dig some holes....Oh I guess you didn't mean Post Hole Diggers. Hmm my mistake....nevermind! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD
The question is a bit of a waste of time as you will only get generalisations and / or specific anectdotes, neither of which is probably relevant. A PhD won't change who you are, if you are sharp and useful now, you still will be. It is part of the entry ticket to a category of jobs (academia, research positions in some large companies). It indicates an interest in research, but it is up to you whether you present at an interview as a boffin or as someone useful. It is also important to keep it in perspective and recognise that the outcome is usually that you will end up knowing absolutely everything about almost nothing (a generalisation!). It's only another piece of paper after all. I have one, proud of it, has been very useful in parts of my career, but it was more a rite of passage than a defining moment. If you want to do it, have a passion, the time and money, go for it. It is harder to do later.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
It will change the person for ever, for instants they will know more they did beforehand. They will have made an original contribution to the pool knowledge. They will be recognised in their field of expertise. It is not just another piece of paper it is a testimonial to their achievement. Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
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I think you mildly offended a PhD, judging by your vote. :laugh:
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
I guess I did? Can't take a joke, a poor one by looks of votes. :) Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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It will change the person for ever, for instants they will know more they did beforehand. They will have made an original contribution to the pool knowledge. They will be recognised in their field of expertise. It is not just another piece of paper it is a testimonial to their achievement. Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
baudwalker wrote:
It will change the person for ever
The real problem is that some people believe that.
baudwalker wrote:
Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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baudwalker wrote:
It will change the person for ever
The real problem is that some people believe that.
baudwalker wrote:
Finally, it is not harder latter. Many years of living, raising a family, working at several careers, will provide more knowledge and skills that will enhance the opportunity of a smooth and successful completion of the doctorate.
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
The real problem is that some people believe that.
Only because it is true
cp9876 wrote:
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
I know my statement is correct. I am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands. Then why do a doctorate I hear you say...because I can, that's why
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I guess I did? Can't take a joke, a poor one by looks of votes. :) Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you! Mike
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
Guess I must have, too - I got uni-voted. It's not that I think Ph.D's have no value, I just think that if your purpose in getting one is to get a top-notch job, it's important to get the real-world experience first unless you want to be restricted to certain specialized segments. If you pursue a Ph.D for your own satisfaction/pleasure/education, then obviously it's worth going for it. Just be prepared to hear things like "Don't you think you'd be bored with this?" or "Really, you're overqualified for this position" or "We can't afford to pay for a Ph.D in this position" and have good answers when you go after that first post-educational job. It's a form of reverse snobbery, I guess, but it absolutely happened to my cousin who made the choice to get his Ph.D before stepping into the real world. He had to convince employers that he really WASN'T looking for research jobs, he was okay with typical starting wages, and no, he wouldn't be any more bored than the other candidates. I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume, unless it's only a small part of the total filter. I would definitely think that 4 years of practical experience has at least equivalent value to a B.S. - you may not have all the breadth of skills you might pick up in college, but then, the college grad may not have the depth of practical knowledge the experienced person has, plus the experienced person has an actual track record. It's all relative.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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cp9876 wrote:
The real problem is that some people believe that.
Only because it is true
cp9876 wrote:
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
I know my statement is correct. I am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands. Then why do a doctorate I hear you say...because I can, that's why
baudwalker wrote:
cp9876 wrote: The real problem is that some people believe that. Only because it is true
Of course it will change you in the same way that any undertaking extending over a few years will. My point is that it won't necessarily change your usefulness for any employer.
baudwalker wrote:
am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands.
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you are in London you should get yourself into one of the many investment banks dotted around the city: they will offer you an excellent career path and a PhD will greatly enhance your chances of both gaining a good first role (and salary) and climbing headlong and rapidly up the greasy corporate pole. You can either apply direct (try the likes of GS or JPMorgan first: they pay the best and are great places to work) or find a good permie agent that specialises in banking and graduate recruitment. Far from holding you back a relevant PhD can only make you a more attractive proposition. Good luck.
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I've seen someone with a masters in computer science who had difficulty implementing an "If then else" structure. In the end it's your experience and portfolio of work/projects which will attract business IT profesionals. The commercial environment is very different to the academic environment, be confident in yourself and aware of your inexperience(if you have not worked commercially before) and I'm sure you will do fine. One piece of advice I would give is "follow your bliss" - if you want to do a PhD then do one, if your are enthusiastic then this will communicate itself to prospective future employers. Good luck :)
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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baudwalker wrote:
cp9876 wrote: The real problem is that some people believe that. Only because it is true
Of course it will change you in the same way that any undertaking extending over a few years will. My point is that it won't necessarily change your usefulness for any employer.
baudwalker wrote:
am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands.
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
You should do it whan ever you feel it is right for you.
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Well, for what it's worth, far too many places are looking for that stupid piece of paper to get past a certain level. It's unfortunate, but true. Therefore, I'm working on my B.S. in IT right now, and I'll roll right into a Master's program in business right after. But it should be noted that I have many years of experience in the field without the "benefit" of a degree. I just think that the domain of IT in general is changing to become less the bunch of proudly self-taught mavericks that once filled the profession and more like everything else. It's a sad thing. As far as going for the doctorate, I would suggest getting out into the field and getting some practical experience before pursuing it. I think that your Master's won't hurt you, but it won't really help you more than the undergraduate degree for getting in the door somewhere. However, a Ph.D. without real-world experience to back it up would probably, as you suggested, make people think you're all about academia and theory, and that you might have an inflated opinion of what you can do. Get the practical hands-on time, then get your Ph.D. if you still want it.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
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Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
Oh, I definitely have nothing against getting a degree or two or three, and I think education is a great thing. I had a number of years of college previously, and I shouldn't imply that I'm unhappy about working on my degree. I actually very much enjoy education for its own sake and it's been of ongoing importance in my personal life even when I was not attending a university. However, I think we've put far too much emphasis on degree over experience in today's world. A degree can be something worth being proud of - it's an accomplishment, certainly, if the program was challenging. It can also represent a person who has learned the discipline necessary to success, and someone who has a breadth of knowledge about the subjects studied. But it should not be the only way to prove knowledge, skill and discipline. Yet for many businesses today, the lack of a degree is an automatic filter. Certainly, lack of a degree can end up being a preventer of movement into management in a number of companies. It's folly; a degree is not some sort of insurance policy for quality. I would think that experience, demonstrated ability, and practical application of knowledge that can be verified through references and observation would be a better indicator of quality.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you can get a PhD go for it, sure you dont have any real world experince yet but it will come when you get hired, just dont expect to earn the same to start with your PhD as someone else with a PhD and 5-10 years on the job. but you'll definatley earn more than your average developer.
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
