PhD and emplyment
-
cp9876 wrote:
The real problem is that some people believe that.
Only because it is true
cp9876 wrote:
I agree, it is just much harder later to justify the time and foregone income, particularly once you have a family etc..
I know my statement is correct. I am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands. Then why do a doctorate I hear you say...because I can, that's why
baudwalker wrote:
cp9876 wrote: The real problem is that some people believe that. Only because it is true
Of course it will change you in the same way that any undertaking extending over a few years will. My point is that it won't necessarily change your usefulness for any employer.
baudwalker wrote:
am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands.
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you are in London you should get yourself into one of the many investment banks dotted around the city: they will offer you an excellent career path and a PhD will greatly enhance your chances of both gaining a good first role (and salary) and climbing headlong and rapidly up the greasy corporate pole. You can either apply direct (try the likes of GS or JPMorgan first: they pay the best and are great places to work) or find a good permie agent that specialises in banking and graduate recruitment. Far from holding you back a relevant PhD can only make you a more attractive proposition. Good luck.
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I've seen someone with a masters in computer science who had difficulty implementing an "If then else" structure. In the end it's your experience and portfolio of work/projects which will attract business IT profesionals. The commercial environment is very different to the academic environment, be confident in yourself and aware of your inexperience(if you have not worked commercially before) and I'm sure you will do fine. One piece of advice I would give is "follow your bliss" - if you want to do a PhD then do one, if your are enthusiastic then this will communicate itself to prospective future employers. Good luck :)
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
-
baudwalker wrote:
cp9876 wrote: The real problem is that some people believe that. Only because it is true
Of course it will change you in the same way that any undertaking extending over a few years will. My point is that it won't necessarily change your usefulness for any employer.
baudwalker wrote:
am 62 I have plenty of time, Money is no object and my family is off my hands.
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
Fantastic - go for it, I think it is great (sincerely). My harder comment was more aimed at the OP who was looking at a PhD as a method of furthering his career. To do it mid-career is, in my opinion, much harder than doing it when you are younger.
You should do it whan ever you feel it is right for you.
-
Well, for what it's worth, far too many places are looking for that stupid piece of paper to get past a certain level. It's unfortunate, but true. Therefore, I'm working on my B.S. in IT right now, and I'll roll right into a Master's program in business right after. But it should be noted that I have many years of experience in the field without the "benefit" of a degree. I just think that the domain of IT in general is changing to become less the bunch of proudly self-taught mavericks that once filled the profession and more like everything else. It's a sad thing. As far as going for the doctorate, I would suggest getting out into the field and getting some practical experience before pursuing it. I think that your Master's won't hurt you, but it won't really help you more than the undergraduate degree for getting in the door somewhere. However, a Ph.D. without real-world experience to back it up would probably, as you suggested, make people think you're all about academia and theory, and that you might have an inflated opinion of what you can do. Get the practical hands-on time, then get your Ph.D. if you still want it.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
-
Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
Oh, I definitely have nothing against getting a degree or two or three, and I think education is a great thing. I had a number of years of college previously, and I shouldn't imply that I'm unhappy about working on my degree. I actually very much enjoy education for its own sake and it's been of ongoing importance in my personal life even when I was not attending a university. However, I think we've put far too much emphasis on degree over experience in today's world. A degree can be something worth being proud of - it's an accomplishment, certainly, if the program was challenging. It can also represent a person who has learned the discipline necessary to success, and someone who has a breadth of knowledge about the subjects studied. But it should not be the only way to prove knowledge, skill and discipline. Yet for many businesses today, the lack of a degree is an automatic filter. Certainly, lack of a degree can end up being a preventer of movement into management in a number of companies. It's folly; a degree is not some sort of insurance policy for quality. I would think that experience, demonstrated ability, and practical application of knowledge that can be verified through references and observation would be a better indicator of quality.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If you can get a PhD go for it, sure you dont have any real world experince yet but it will come when you get hired, just dont expect to earn the same to start with your PhD as someone else with a PhD and 5-10 years on the job. but you'll definatley earn more than your average developer.
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
-
I've been in the same position as you. What I concluded was that if you love research, and don't care much about money1, then a PhD is the way to go. But if you love programming, then stop at a master. Companies will just hesitate to employ you. 1 Of course there is money in having a PhD. That is, if you are privately employed. During the time you are getting the PhD, you won't be earning much...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
What I concluded was that if you love research
I think I would enjoy doing the PhD.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Companies will just hesitate to employ you.
Thats my problem, I can't see me wanting to work doing research in universities for very long (if it all).
-
It can be difficult to convince the HR people to pass on your CV for engineering roles, tht's how the fitlers are set :( PS - Pile it Higher and Deeper? :laugh:
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
-
Guess I must have, too - I got uni-voted. It's not that I think Ph.D's have no value, I just think that if your purpose in getting one is to get a top-notch job, it's important to get the real-world experience first unless you want to be restricted to certain specialized segments. If you pursue a Ph.D for your own satisfaction/pleasure/education, then obviously it's worth going for it. Just be prepared to hear things like "Don't you think you'd be bored with this?" or "Really, you're overqualified for this position" or "We can't afford to pay for a Ph.D in this position" and have good answers when you go after that first post-educational job. It's a form of reverse snobbery, I guess, but it absolutely happened to my cousin who made the choice to get his Ph.D before stepping into the real world. He had to convince employers that he really WASN'T looking for research jobs, he was okay with typical starting wages, and no, he wouldn't be any more bored than the other candidates. I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume, unless it's only a small part of the total filter. I would definitely think that 4 years of practical experience has at least equivalent value to a B.S. - you may not have all the breadth of skills you might pick up in college, but then, the college grad may not have the depth of practical knowledge the experienced person has, plus the experienced person has an actual track record. It's all relative.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
ResidentGeek wrote:
I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume
It's just that a PhD are most likely going to want a bigger salary than someone with a master's. If the job is to develop software, in which PhD level of knowledge is overkill, you get better bang for the buck if you hire the one with a master's degree.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
-
Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long?
I'm wary of anybody that has been in the educational system no matter how short or long. Marc
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Having a PhD and no experience is the hardest. Employees want someone who can do the job, and a PhD says "I know a lot about a single topic and am prepared to see something through to the end". If you're going for a job on the same topic as your PhD it's a bonus. Otherwise your PhD may mean very little. Just accept that you have no real-world experience, grab a junior role and work your way up. Once you've got the experience then things change: You come in with real-world experience, some notches on your belt, good references, and a PhD, and you have a slight edge. Just don't do a PhD for the sake of doing a PhD. It's a cosy, safe alternative to actually getting out there and moving forward with your career. I went down that track myself and it took a couple of years to realise that while I wanted the 'Dr' it would do very little to help me move on in my life.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
-
Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long?
I'm wary of anybody that has been in the educational system no matter how short or long. Marc
-
Chris Maunder wrote:
Care to generalise your generalisation a little?
Well, we know where that will go. One my father's expressions (he was a music professor at Yale and SUNY Buffalo) was "everyone's an idiot." I swore as a kid I would never grow up saying that. :sigh: Marc
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If someone applies for a job with a PhD and no experience, they should expect entry level pay. A PhD doesn't mean squat if you have no real-world experience. Tell me - which of these two programmers would you hire? 1) PhD with less than 1 year of experience 2) Little/no college, but 5 years experience Plus, someone with a PhD would probably expect more money just because of the paper. Besides all of the above, the Mayan calendar ends in about 4-1/2 years. What the hell good is your PhD gonna do you when the world comes to an end in 2012? Huh? Tell me! WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO?!
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Having a PhD and no experience is the hardest. Employees want someone who can do the job, and a PhD says "I know a lot about a single topic and am prepared to see something through to the end". If you're going for a job on the same topic as your PhD it's a bonus. Otherwise your PhD may mean very little. Just accept that you have no real-world experience, grab a junior role and work your way up. Once you've got the experience then things change: You come in with real-world experience, some notches on your belt, good references, and a PhD, and you have a slight edge. Just don't do a PhD for the sake of doing a PhD. It's a cosy, safe alternative to actually getting out there and moving forward with your career. I went down that track myself and it took a couple of years to realise that while I wanted the 'Dr' it would do very little to help me move on in my life.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Some companies would hire him simply to be able to say they have a PhD on their staff (defense contractors are really bad about that). He may be relegated to a closet in the mail room because he has the work experience of a two-slice toaster, but he's still a PhD.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go. I myself have a B.S. in CS and MIS. I am working on my MBA now. I also have about 3 years of solid real-world experience. Let's face it, we may as well say that we as developers/software engineers ect.. are practicing in our profession. There are times when we are asked to come up with things that have never been done before. And with real world experience you can draw from your knowledge bank of what works best and what does it as it relates to solving your problems. So, I believe the degrees are great but the real world experience is even better. If you understand the theories presented in the college classes. If you do not and are coding by mimicking what you have found in articles, when you come to very complex situations which there are no articles for you will wind up lost with no direction. Saying that, experience is invaluable, and education is definitely needed, both combine constitutes for a very exceptional person is many cases. :-D
-
I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
There are a few considerations. First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem. Second, where do you want to work? If on a university campus or in a research institute, having a PhD may be quite beneficial, but for other places might be a problem. As a general rule, I suggest looking through the relevant trade publications for your area of specialization and interest. In the back they often have classified help-wanted ads. See what actual employers of the type you'd be interested in are looking for today and in the recent past. Ultimately, employers make their hiring decisions based on the opinions of a few people. Different people have different prejudices, so it's a crap shoot as to who happens to interview you and what their particular prejudices are. Some people are intimidated by people with more education than they have themselves, and some aren't. Some people look down their noses at people with less education than they have themselves, and some don't. No matter what you choose, you won't please everyone. Also, another factor that may work against PhD job applicants is that employers may likely expect that they will have to pay them more money. Unless you are the CEO, they don't like to do that. Having a PhD will likely limit the number of positions you will be seriously considered for, but conversely may be essential for a small number of positions. So, it comes back to this: what do you want to do?
modified on Friday, April 25, 2008 10:42 AM
-
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go. I myself have a B.S. in CS and MIS. I am working on my MBA now. I also have about 3 years of solid real-world experience. Let's face it, we may as well say that we as developers/software engineers ect.. are practicing in our profession. There are times when we are asked to come up with things that have never been done before. And with real world experience you can draw from your knowledge bank of what works best and what does it as it relates to solving your problems. So, I believe the degrees are great but the real world experience is even better. If you understand the theories presented in the college classes. If you do not and are coding by mimicking what you have found in articles, when you come to very complex situations which there are no articles for you will wind up lost with no direction. Saying that, experience is invaluable, and education is definitely needed, both combine constitutes for a very exceptional person is many cases. :-D
CodeManX wrote:
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go
Having talked to a couple of MBAs working at Starbucks I'm a little dubious of their value. I think the caliber of the school is all important, but even then predominantly so that you meet the right people with the right connections. If you have a pretend degree, such as flower arranging or media studies, then I can see an ROI. In the past when employment tenure measured in the decades, companies would pay their best to get better educated. Nowadays the best I’ve seen is perhaps 2-5% of the cost redeemed. If you already have a degree in an actual discipline and experience then I sincerely doubt there would be an ROI on what is a very expensive piece of paper. Most managers I’ve worked with do not have an MBA but instead proved themselves to be invaluable in what they do.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
