PhD and emplyment
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
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I've been in the same position as you. What I concluded was that if you love research, and don't care much about money1, then a PhD is the way to go. But if you love programming, then stop at a master. Companies will just hesitate to employ you. 1 Of course there is money in having a PhD. That is, if you are privately employed. During the time you are getting the PhD, you won't be earning much...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
What I concluded was that if you love research
I think I would enjoy doing the PhD.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Companies will just hesitate to employ you.
Thats my problem, I can't see me wanting to work doing research in universities for very long (if it all).
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It can be difficult to convince the HR people to pass on your CV for engineering roles, tht's how the fitlers are set :( PS - Pile it Higher and Deeper? :laugh:
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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Guess I must have, too - I got uni-voted. It's not that I think Ph.D's have no value, I just think that if your purpose in getting one is to get a top-notch job, it's important to get the real-world experience first unless you want to be restricted to certain specialized segments. If you pursue a Ph.D for your own satisfaction/pleasure/education, then obviously it's worth going for it. Just be prepared to hear things like "Don't you think you'd be bored with this?" or "Really, you're overqualified for this position" or "We can't afford to pay for a Ph.D in this position" and have good answers when you go after that first post-educational job. It's a form of reverse snobbery, I guess, but it absolutely happened to my cousin who made the choice to get his Ph.D before stepping into the real world. He had to convince employers that he really WASN'T looking for research jobs, he was okay with typical starting wages, and no, he wouldn't be any more bored than the other candidates. I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume, unless it's only a small part of the total filter. I would definitely think that 4 years of practical experience has at least equivalent value to a B.S. - you may not have all the breadth of skills you might pick up in college, but then, the college grad may not have the depth of practical knowledge the experienced person has, plus the experienced person has an actual track record. It's all relative.
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
ResidentGeek wrote:
I *do* think it's stupid to look at the the presence of a degree as a filter to whether you consider a resume
It's just that a PhD are most likely going to want a bigger salary than someone with a master's. If the job is to develop software, in which PhD level of knowledge is overkill, you get better bang for the buck if you hire the one with a master's degree.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long?
I'm wary of anybody that has been in the educational system no matter how short or long. Marc
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
Having a PhD and no experience is the hardest. Employees want someone who can do the job, and a PhD says "I know a lot about a single topic and am prepared to see something through to the end". If you're going for a job on the same topic as your PhD it's a bonus. Otherwise your PhD may mean very little. Just accept that you have no real-world experience, grab a junior role and work your way up. Once you've got the experience then things change: You come in with real-world experience, some notches on your belt, good references, and a PhD, and you have a slight edge. Just don't do a PhD for the sake of doing a PhD. It's a cosy, safe alternative to actually getting out there and moving forward with your career. I went down that track myself and it took a couple of years to realise that while I wanted the 'Dr' it would do very little to help me move on in my life.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long?
I'm wary of anybody that has been in the educational system no matter how short or long. Marc
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Care to generalise your generalisation a little?
Well, we know where that will go. One my father's expressions (he was a music professor at Yale and SUNY Buffalo) was "everyone's an idiot." I swore as a kid I would never grow up saying that. :sigh: Marc
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
If someone applies for a job with a PhD and no experience, they should expect entry level pay. A PhD doesn't mean squat if you have no real-world experience. Tell me - which of these two programmers would you hire? 1) PhD with less than 1 year of experience 2) Little/no college, but 5 years experience Plus, someone with a PhD would probably expect more money just because of the paper. Besides all of the above, the Mayan calendar ends in about 4-1/2 years. What the hell good is your PhD gonna do you when the world comes to an end in 2012? Huh? Tell me! WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO?!
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Having a PhD and no experience is the hardest. Employees want someone who can do the job, and a PhD says "I know a lot about a single topic and am prepared to see something through to the end". If you're going for a job on the same topic as your PhD it's a bonus. Otherwise your PhD may mean very little. Just accept that you have no real-world experience, grab a junior role and work your way up. Once you've got the experience then things change: You come in with real-world experience, some notches on your belt, good references, and a PhD, and you have a slight edge. Just don't do a PhD for the sake of doing a PhD. It's a cosy, safe alternative to actually getting out there and moving forward with your career. I went down that track myself and it took a couple of years to realise that while I wanted the 'Dr' it would do very little to help me move on in my life.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Some companies would hire him simply to be able to say they have a PhD on their staff (defense contractors are really bad about that). He may be relegated to a closet in the mail room because he has the work experience of a two-slice toaster, but he's still a PhD.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Not all degrees are equal. I did a BSc in Physics at Imperial, got a none too shabby 2.2 What do I do? Mainly Accountant, degree physics has not helped in any way. Except of course that the earning of a degree allows the mind to grow and move in ways hitherto unexplored. This only counts for 'proper' degrees. Maths, Physics, History, Classics, etc these are 'proper' degrees. Meeja studies and Surf Board Design are not! ALthough it is so bad that we now give prospective employees a test paper before employment, checking that we can read their writing, and their spelling is up to scratch as well as basic numerology and general knowledge. It is amazing how many people with degrees or diplomas have no idea of spelling or grammar and whose writing is deplorable enough to embarrass a Doctor!
------------------------------------ I try to appear cooler, by calling him Euler.
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go. I myself have a B.S. in CS and MIS. I am working on my MBA now. I also have about 3 years of solid real-world experience. Let's face it, we may as well say that we as developers/software engineers ect.. are practicing in our profession. There are times when we are asked to come up with things that have never been done before. And with real world experience you can draw from your knowledge bank of what works best and what does it as it relates to solving your problems. So, I believe the degrees are great but the real world experience is even better. If you understand the theories presented in the college classes. If you do not and are coding by mimicking what you have found in articles, when you come to very complex situations which there are no articles for you will wind up lost with no direction. Saying that, experience is invaluable, and education is definitely needed, both combine constitutes for a very exceptional person is many cases. :-D
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
There are a few considerations. First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem. Second, where do you want to work? If on a university campus or in a research institute, having a PhD may be quite beneficial, but for other places might be a problem. As a general rule, I suggest looking through the relevant trade publications for your area of specialization and interest. In the back they often have classified help-wanted ads. See what actual employers of the type you'd be interested in are looking for today and in the recent past. Ultimately, employers make their hiring decisions based on the opinions of a few people. Different people have different prejudices, so it's a crap shoot as to who happens to interview you and what their particular prejudices are. Some people are intimidated by people with more education than they have themselves, and some aren't. Some people look down their noses at people with less education than they have themselves, and some don't. No matter what you choose, you won't please everyone. Also, another factor that may work against PhD job applicants is that employers may likely expect that they will have to pay them more money. Unless you are the CEO, they don't like to do that. Having a PhD will likely limit the number of positions you will be seriously considered for, but conversely may be essential for a small number of positions. So, it comes back to this: what do you want to do?
modified on Friday, April 25, 2008 10:42 AM
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Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go. I myself have a B.S. in CS and MIS. I am working on my MBA now. I also have about 3 years of solid real-world experience. Let's face it, we may as well say that we as developers/software engineers ect.. are practicing in our profession. There are times when we are asked to come up with things that have never been done before. And with real world experience you can draw from your knowledge bank of what works best and what does it as it relates to solving your problems. So, I believe the degrees are great but the real world experience is even better. If you understand the theories presented in the college classes. If you do not and are coding by mimicking what you have found in articles, when you come to very complex situations which there are no articles for you will wind up lost with no direction. Saying that, experience is invaluable, and education is definitely needed, both combine constitutes for a very exceptional person is many cases. :-D
CodeManX wrote:
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go
Having talked to a couple of MBAs working at Starbucks I'm a little dubious of their value. I think the caliber of the school is all important, but even then predominantly so that you meet the right people with the right connections. If you have a pretend degree, such as flower arranging or media studies, then I can see an ROI. In the past when employment tenure measured in the decades, companies would pay their best to get better educated. Nowadays the best I’ve seen is perhaps 2-5% of the cost redeemed. If you already have a degree in an actual discipline and experience then I sincerely doubt there would be an ROI on what is a very expensive piece of paper. Most managers I’ve worked with do not have an MBA but instead proved themselves to be invaluable in what they do.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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There are a few considerations. First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem. Second, where do you want to work? If on a university campus or in a research institute, having a PhD may be quite beneficial, but for other places might be a problem. As a general rule, I suggest looking through the relevant trade publications for your area of specialization and interest. In the back they often have classified help-wanted ads. See what actual employers of the type you'd be interested in are looking for today and in the recent past. Ultimately, employers make their hiring decisions based on the opinions of a few people. Different people have different prejudices, so it's a crap shoot as to who happens to interview you and what their particular prejudices are. Some people are intimidated by people with more education than they have themselves, and some aren't. Some people look down their noses at people with less education than they have themselves, and some don't. No matter what you choose, you won't please everyone. Also, another factor that may work against PhD job applicants is that employers may likely expect that they will have to pay them more money. Unless you are the CEO, they don't like to do that. Having a PhD will likely limit the number of positions you will be seriously considered for, but conversely may be essential for a small number of positions. So, it comes back to this: what do you want to do?
modified on Friday, April 25, 2008 10:42 AM
david_f_knight wrote:
First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem.
I find this quite amusing, for personal reasons. Since earning my PhD in physics, I went on to develop accounting applications. My roommate, who went through the same program, went on to develop MRI equipment. I found my PhD to be helpful, but not in the career-advancing sense. My career would almost certainly have moved more quickly if I had spent those four years in the workforce rather than academia. But I find that my experience in science does give me an approach to problem-solving that occasionally gives me an advantage over my peers. If my degree had been in CS, I'm not sure whether that would still be the case. Also, I've taken advantage of my degree to take the occasional break from IT to teach university courses. That's much harder to do without the PhD!
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Nnamdi Onyeyiri wrote:
how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD
The question is a bit of a waste of time as you will only get generalisations and / or specific anectdotes, neither of which is probably relevant. A PhD won't change who you are, if you are sharp and useful now, you still will be. It is part of the entry ticket to a category of jobs (academia, research positions in some large companies). It indicates an interest in research, but it is up to you whether you present at an interview as a boffin or as someone useful. It is also important to keep it in perspective and recognise that the outcome is usually that you will end up knowing absolutely everything about almost nothing (a generalisation!). It's only another piece of paper after all. I have one, proud of it, has been very useful in parts of my career, but it was more a rite of passage than a defining moment. If you want to do it, have a passion, the time and money, go for it. It is harder to do later.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
and money
And there's my downfall. I'd love to Masters in CS out of personal curiosity and a love of learning. The problem is it costs so damn much and will never pay for itself.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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CodeManX wrote:
Well, I've been told that getting a MBA coupled with a B.S. in a computer-related discipline is the way to go
Having talked to a couple of MBAs working at Starbucks I'm a little dubious of their value. I think the caliber of the school is all important, but even then predominantly so that you meet the right people with the right connections. If you have a pretend degree, such as flower arranging or media studies, then I can see an ROI. In the past when employment tenure measured in the decades, companies would pay their best to get better educated. Nowadays the best I’ve seen is perhaps 2-5% of the cost redeemed. If you already have a degree in an actual discipline and experience then I sincerely doubt there would be an ROI on what is a very expensive piece of paper. Most managers I’ve worked with do not have an MBA but instead proved themselves to be invaluable in what they do.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
The purpose of obtaining a B.S. degree is to open your mind. The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise. The Purpose of a PhD is to enhance your knowledge to the point where you are able to formulate a new view to that specific field which has not been built before or to reverse or enhance a certain view/position which was given in the field previously. Now, all of the Managers that I worked with and worked for all had higher degrees Mostly Master's degrees. IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems. You have to be able to correctly Identify a problem before you can propose a solution. The people that are in these positions usually hold a Master's degree or PhD. The people who they manage usually have a B.S. degree. Now, if you do not care about your job security and just want to remain a coder, than yes degrees and especially a PhD does not matter one bit. I personally value my profession much more than that and believe since we hold the keys to technological innovation, we should be held in a higher regard. Technology is the only field where it has a bearing on "everything" around it. Not even the field of medicine has that affect. Someone can avoid a doctor or taking a single pill all of their life but they cannot avoid walking through automatic doors, waiting at stop lights, or paying for an item at a cash register. All results of technological innovation. So, to say you don't need a higher degree, I say well, how far do you want you mind to be able to stretch?
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I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree now, and have found myself wondering whether or not I want to do a PhD. I definitely wanted to do one in the past, but then I was told that doing one would push me down the academic route for good, and I don't want to do that. So I was thinking, how do employers view students fresh out with a PhD? I imagine they would be somewhat wary of somebody who has been in the education system so long? I have had experience working in the industry with a few 1 to 3 month jobs, so nothing substantial. What do you guys think?
I think a PhD is a huge negative outside work in a government research institute. I won't hire computer science PhDs for the simple reason that I toss their resumes as soon as I see them. I've yet to work with a CS PhD that wasn't completely worthless; for every single one of them, programming was a weird intellectual process with little grounding in reality. Only one programmer I respect has ever hired a PhD. He immediately regretted it and ended up firing the guy six months later. Now, if you are still interested in the intellectual side of computer science and would rather teach than do, I still suggest getting several years of real world experience, and then getting your PhD. (I think it actually should be mandatory that people get real work experience before embarking on post-graduate work.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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The purpose of obtaining a B.S. degree is to open your mind. The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise. The Purpose of a PhD is to enhance your knowledge to the point where you are able to formulate a new view to that specific field which has not been built before or to reverse or enhance a certain view/position which was given in the field previously. Now, all of the Managers that I worked with and worked for all had higher degrees Mostly Master's degrees. IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems. You have to be able to correctly Identify a problem before you can propose a solution. The people that are in these positions usually hold a Master's degree or PhD. The people who they manage usually have a B.S. degree. Now, if you do not care about your job security and just want to remain a coder, than yes degrees and especially a PhD does not matter one bit. I personally value my profession much more than that and believe since we hold the keys to technological innovation, we should be held in a higher regard. Technology is the only field where it has a bearing on "everything" around it. Not even the field of medicine has that affect. Someone can avoid a doctor or taking a single pill all of their life but they cannot avoid walking through automatic doors, waiting at stop lights, or paying for an item at a cash register. All results of technological innovation. So, to say you don't need a higher degree, I say well, how far do you want you mind to be able to stretch?
CodeManX wrote:
IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems
CodeManX wrote:
The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise
These two are at odds. In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions. A business related Master my provide a theoretical framework, but only experience will give you the tools to truly take on the task. And experience is granted by ones proven ability. I'll concede larger organization like their senior management to have MBAs. In my experience this is not the case in smaller organizations. Obviously in other disciplines such as finance, an MBA is almost a rite-of-passage.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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david_f_knight wrote:
First, what type of work do you want to do? Some things in industry are more suited to having a PhD than others. For example, if you want to work developing state-of-the-art 3D MRI-type advanced medical imaging equipment, having a PhD might be quite beneficial. On the other hand, if you want to work developing accounting applications, having a PhD might be a big problem.
I find this quite amusing, for personal reasons. Since earning my PhD in physics, I went on to develop accounting applications. My roommate, who went through the same program, went on to develop MRI equipment. I found my PhD to be helpful, but not in the career-advancing sense. My career would almost certainly have moved more quickly if I had spent those four years in the workforce rather than academia. But I find that my experience in science does give me an approach to problem-solving that occasionally gives me an advantage over my peers. If my degree had been in CS, I'm not sure whether that would still be the case. Also, I've taken advantage of my degree to take the occasional break from IT to teach university courses. That's much harder to do without the PhD!
By saying that having a PhD might be a big problem if you want to develop accounting applications, I meant it specifically in the context of getting an employer to hire you, not in any more general sense. I'd never argue that having less education is better than having more! But do all employers value it equally? I don't think so. It's a question of optimizing finite resources for maximum personal benefit. There are many ways to evaluate the potential benefit of further education, such as personal satisfaction, career flexibility and opportunity, lifetime earnings, professional capabilities, and cash flow (earning money working sooner vs. increasing debt funding more education). My take on it is this: if you want to be a generalist or don't have a driving interest in any particular specialization, don't get a PhD. But if you want to be an authority on some specific field, be a researcher, or be on the faculty of a university, getting a PhD may well be the best (or only) way to get there.
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CodeManX wrote:
IBM, SUN, Microsoft, will not put a person with years of experience in charge of millions of dollars unless they know that person has the ability to properly access problems and come up with the best solutions for those problems
CodeManX wrote:
The purpose of Obtaining a Master's degree is to further your knowledge in a specific area of expertise
These two are at odds. In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions. A business related Master my provide a theoretical framework, but only experience will give you the tools to truly take on the task. And experience is granted by ones proven ability. I'll concede larger organization like their senior management to have MBAs. In my experience this is not the case in smaller organizations. Obviously in other disciplines such as finance, an MBA is almost a rite-of-passage.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
MidwestLimey wrote:
In no way does a Masters degree give you the wherewithal to make effective business decisions.
I agree with you that a Master degree does not automatically make you capable of proposing and applying effective business decision. I haven’t stated that by achieving a Master's degree you will automatically be able to solve many organizational problems. But, having the invaluable tools to know how to approach different areas of problems is invaluable. You can give a painter the best brushes in this world, but that does not ensure that the painting will be a master piece. So, I do agree with you that just having the degree does not qualify you as a master organizational problem solver. I will also agree with you on experience. Experience is also invaluable. I know this first-hand as probably you do as well. I started coding in visual basic in the 8th grade. Now, honestly I didn't have to go to college, obtain a few degrees to solidify myself as an good programmer. But, having done so, I was exposed to C++, MIPS, Unix(Solaris), Ada, and many other languages that a few I probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to explore on my own. And by experiencing different issues with every one of those technologies/languages I have a better understanding of the best ways to write a class, stored procedure, constructor and so on. I am saying that the classroom experiences also contributed to my real-world experiences. It may be different for other, but for me, it has been very beneficial. This can be true for many professions. Take a medical doctor for instance. They go through years of schooling to learn fundamentals and theories/case studies in medicine. But, all of that schooling with out real-world knowledge is nothing. Yet also, real-world knowledge without a strong base and knowledge of "why" would not be beneficial to solving any patient's problem. "I like to know why things work, not just that they do work".
