Trollbait: From Win32 to Cocoa: a Windows user's conversion to Mac OS X
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Jim Crafton wrote:
wait till you move to linux
Hold on. I thought when you moved to Linux, the sun always shined, it's always a nice 70 degrees with no rain, there's flowers, green trees, bunnies and blue birds singing the praises of Linus, you always get packages, even though it's not your birthday and there's eye candy galore. You mean ... none of that is true?!?! I .... I ... I feel so disillusioned right now ... I may need to lay down. :-D
take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning... On the second thought, screw that, just boot back in to Windows XP and get on with your life :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
On Macs you have Xcode.
and Eclipse and NetBeans:) Though I like XCode a lot.
Jim Crafton wrote:
Xcode, in Apple's infinite wisdom, is not a very extensible package.
I am not sure about that. There are a lot you can do with XCode. Currently, you can write Python, Perl, C, C++ (Intellisense that actually works:) ), ObjectiveC, Java and Ruby code. I have not written any XCode Add-Ins yet but I know that it is possible. Other nice thing about Xcode is that it can integrate with SVN, CVS and Perforce. The only thing which I don't like about XCode is the window management. Things get little complex when you have too many code windows open. It still is lacking when it compares with VS but I think it is not a whole lot behind. The another nice things about it are that it is free, and that folks of Apple actually use it for developing software for Mac.
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
and Eclipse and NetBeans
That's not a whole lot to get exited about :)
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
It still is lacking when it compares with VS but I think it is not a whole lot behind.
I was referring to being able to extend the IDE like can with VS (sort of, I don't know how open that is) or with Eclipse or Borland. Compared to any of those Xcode is really limited. Which is strange because it's based on a language which is *perfect* for this kind of dynamic extensibility!!! Better than Java or C++/C#.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
The another nice things about it are that it is free, and that folks of Apple actually use it for developing software for Mac.
That's because they don't have any choice. If you want to develop for Mac you don't have much choice, in terms of an IDE (and I'm excluding Java and any of the various scripting stuff).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Going off on a tangent here, but one of the strengths of Windows and other graphical OS's is that it made using applications easier. You didn't have to remember how to exit a dozen different applications because they all have a bit red X in the top right hand corner. Easy! And much better than the old DOS days. However, it seems increasingly, and especially with media players and similar, that applications are moving away from this and coming up with all kinds of complicated GUIs that don't fit the standard. Applications such as Windows Media player that hides away the menus in order to try and look stylish, but just annoys the crap out of me. This seems to be a trend that started with Apple who are especially arrogant about creating Windows apps (I'm looking at you iTunes) that completely eschew the OS standards and generally make things less usable. I don't know if I have a point here, I just felt the need to vent!
modified on Friday, April 25, 2008 4:08 PM
Wjousts wrote:
I don't know if I have a point here
It's not required. :laugh:
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
and Eclipse and NetBeans
That's not a whole lot to get exited about :)
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
It still is lacking when it compares with VS but I think it is not a whole lot behind.
I was referring to being able to extend the IDE like can with VS (sort of, I don't know how open that is) or with Eclipse or Borland. Compared to any of those Xcode is really limited. Which is strange because it's based on a language which is *perfect* for this kind of dynamic extensibility!!! Better than Java or C++/C#.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
The another nice things about it are that it is free, and that folks of Apple actually use it for developing software for Mac.
That's because they don't have any choice. If you want to develop for Mac you don't have much choice, in terms of an IDE (and I'm excluding Java and any of the various scripting stuff).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
BTW: I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available. I may get falmed for that but that is probably true.
Jim Crafton wrote:
IDE like can with VS
Like using VS SDK? You want to build a designer for VCF with-in XCode? Is that what you are after?
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
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Going off on a tangent here, but one of the strengths of Windows and other graphical OS's is that it made using applications easier. You didn't have to remember how to exit a dozen different applications because they all have a bit red X in the top right hand corner. Easy! And much better than the old DOS days. However, it seems increasingly, and especially with media players and similar, that applications are moving away from this and coming up with all kinds of complicated GUIs that don't fit the standard. Applications such as Windows Media player that hides away the menus in order to try and look stylish, but just annoys the crap out of me. This seems to be a trend that started with Apple who are especially arrogant about creating Windows apps (I'm looking at you iTunes) that completely eschew the OS standards and generally make things less usable. I don't know if I have a point here, I just felt the need to vent!
modified on Friday, April 25, 2008 4:08 PM
Wjousts wrote:
This seems to be a trend that started with Apple who are especially arrogant about creating Windows apps (I'm looking at you iTunes) that completely eschew the OS standards and generally make things less usable.
The sad thing is, Apple's "brushed metal" skinned apps were criticized for years by Mac users, and - AFAIK - most of them have been phased out with the latest release of OS X. And while apps like Firefox are using skin engines to produce cross-platform apps that look appropriate for each target platform, native Windows apps are using them to "differentiate" themselves, destroying the advantages of consistency that you speak of. Meanwhile, WMP gets uglier and uglier with each release - I rarely touch it anymore, but when i do i use the main menu by right-clicking on the title bar. While less flagrant examples, both Windows Explorer and IE take ugly turns for the worse in Vista. To say nothing of the many, many apps that try to mimick the latest look in Office. I'm using a source control client now that tries to do a "Ribbon"-style UI - it succeeds only in consistently hiding the most relevant commands.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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BTW: I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available. I may get falmed for that but that is probably true.
Jim Crafton wrote:
IDE like can with VS
Like using VS SDK? You want to build a designer for VCF with-in XCode? Is that what you are after?
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available.
I agree. I think they made it a bit obtuse, but it's amazing what you can do with it. Delphi used to have a really cool, if undocumented, set of API's to extend the IDE.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
You want to build a designer for VCF with-in XCode? Is that what you are after?
Well not necessarily for the VCF but just in general, the ability to add some custom editor, or an advanced debugging visualizer, or any of the various add-ins that you can do with VS, and so on. To the best of my knowledge none of that's possible with Xcode. I'm on the Xcode mailing list and I've seen people inquire about stuff like this only to get turned down.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
wait till you move to linux
Hold on. I thought when you moved to Linux, the sun always shined, it's always a nice 70 degrees with no rain, there's flowers, green trees, bunnies and blue birds singing the praises of Linus, you always get packages, even though it's not your birthday and there's eye candy galore. You mean ... none of that is true?!?! I .... I ... I feel so disillusioned right now ... I may need to lay down. :-D
Douglas Troy wrote:
I thought when you moved to Linux, the sun always shined, it's always a nice 70 degrees with no rain,
Why do you think they use a penguin as a symbol? ;P
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BTW: I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available. I may get falmed for that but that is probably true.
Jim Crafton wrote:
IDE like can with VS
Like using VS SDK? You want to build a designer for VCF with-in XCode? Is that what you are after?
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
BTW: I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available. I may get falmed for that but that is probably true.
Oh, it totally is. Eclipse provides so many extension points, it's awesome. Heck, part of the whole 3.x move was separating the Java language from the Eclipse environment so that you didn't have to use the Java stuff if you didn't want to. That's pretty freakin' awesome, when the primary use-case uses the same extensibility points as everybody else. :)
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Wjousts wrote:
This seems to be a trend that started with Apple who are especially arrogant about creating Windows apps (I'm looking at you iTunes) that completely eschew the OS standards and generally make things less usable.
The sad thing is, Apple's "brushed metal" skinned apps were criticized for years by Mac users, and - AFAIK - most of them have been phased out with the latest release of OS X. And while apps like Firefox are using skin engines to produce cross-platform apps that look appropriate for each target platform, native Windows apps are using them to "differentiate" themselves, destroying the advantages of consistency that you speak of. Meanwhile, WMP gets uglier and uglier with each release - I rarely touch it anymore, but when i do i use the main menu by right-clicking on the title bar. While less flagrant examples, both Windows Explorer and IE take ugly turns for the worse in Vista. To say nothing of the many, many apps that try to mimick the latest look in Office. I'm using a source control client now that tries to do a "Ribbon"-style UI - it succeeds only in consistently hiding the most relevant commands.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
native Windows apps are using them to "differentiate" themselves, destroying the advantages of consistency that you speak of
The company I work for has mandated a common look-and-feel for all of our products. The group that defined the standard deliberately chose to deviate from both the Mac and Windows conventions, and create a brand new one. Our housekeeping staff are getting tired of scrubbing the blood off the wall where I beat my head.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
BTW: I think Eclipse is the most extensible IDE available. I may get falmed for that but that is probably true.
Oh, it totally is. Eclipse provides so many extension points, it's awesome. Heck, part of the whole 3.x move was separating the Java language from the Eclipse environment so that you didn't have to use the Java stuff if you didn't want to. That's pretty freakin' awesome, when the primary use-case uses the same extensibility points as everybody else. :)
David Stone wrote:
Heck, part of the whole 3.x move was separating the Java language from the Eclipse environment so that you didn't have to use the Java stuff if you didn't want to.
Eclipse has now achieved its true destiny. It is no longer a mere IDE. It is now an extremely non-specific meta-IDE. Define your tools, then define the code to solve your original problem with those tools. If the technology had existed 30 years ago, just think of what emacs could have been by now! Actually, that should be good for a few wake-up-screaming nightmares; an emacs even more inscrutably, impenetrably omnipotent than Emacs 22... everybody who uses it is a geek god, because only geek gods will put in the effort necessary for mastery.... :-P
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