Programming forums [modified]
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:rant: It's been a while since I've been active on the programming forums mainly because I've been very busy these last months, but I was having one of those "bored" moments and I decided to have a look. I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is. It has seriously degraded since the last times I visited them. Especially the ASP.NET forum. I also know there was a lot of talk on numerous occasions as well about redesigning the forums and John Simmons has iterated this as long as I can remember, but I really think we need to find some solution for this problem because it is sad what's going on. And it's just bringing down the community. Probably some system where valuable users of the community can somehow mark these messages so that they're moved a couple of pages away or move them to a beginner's sister forum of the main forum. I know there is a high level of work going on into improving the website by trying to solve all sort of problems like article moderation, etc, but I think this is also something that needs to be looked into, because it's just sad what's going on. [EDIT] My suggestion is having a sister forum for each programming forum (or at least for the ones that are having troubles). A beginner's forum, where valuable users of the community can move those questions that are ultimately the straightforward "google it" or just so simple that they don't even deserve mention on a serious programming forum. [/EDIT]
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
I sort of gravitate towards the opposite of that - I'd rather separate the wheat from the chaff, not the chaff from the wheat. If that makes any sense :) I'm thinking of a system that allowed respected community members (gold, platinum, MVP, etc... whatever) that frequent forums to promote questions/threads to 'wheat' status, at which point they would show up in the sister forum tagged as 'wheat'. So, there would be the current C# forum, which any registered user can post to. There would also be the 'C# Wheat' forum, which contained a roll-up of the threads in the regular forum marked as 'wheat' by the respected members of the community. I'm not very active in any of the programming forums myself - too much chaff, too little free time for quite awhile. So I'm perfectly willing to consider that my suggestion won't do any good :) But I thought I'd throw it out there. It just seems like a 'white-list' approach would be the best way to filter out the junk. Everyone who goes into the forum goes looking for the wheat, so why not give them a really simple, easy, direct way to let everyone else know what they found? Like any rating system, its Achilles' heal is the reliability of the people entrusted with voting status. It can't be everyone, but there have to be enough to make sure the forums are being polled frequently enough.
-- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
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Yeah, here is the first candidate: http://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/View.aspx?fid=217394&msg=2523857[^] http://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/View.aspx?fid=217394&msg=2523969[^]
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." --Groucho Marx
Not that kind of stuff, the stuff indicated where someone is rude and disrespectful when someone attempts to help them. Those links are to a person who is just completely dense, that's a different thing entirely.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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leckey wrote:
links of their behavior. It would not be for flaming,
They will inevitably get flamed by someone. I for one am not into that pointing fingers thing. We should ideally end up educating them, but that's not an easy thing. Most important we should find some way of cleaning up the forums of the inappropriate questions which just hide the serious questions into a sea of incompetence and unprofessionalism.
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
Flaming is fine if they are rude or disrespectful when treated with respect and helpfully initially. The "poor questions" thing is a different kettle of fish entirely and subject to a very fuzzy point of view; we should be more tolerant of "bad questions" but less tolerant of rude or disrespectful behaviour here.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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I'm hoping to have something out in the next few days that will surface the good stuff a little easier. In terms of member's behaving badly I'm tempted by the idea of allow community banishing of those members who abuse the site. Thoughts?
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Thoughts?
Burn them on a stake!
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 3 out now -
I'm hoping to have something out in the next few days that will surface the good stuff a little easier. In terms of member's behaving badly I'm tempted by the idea of allow community banishing of those members who abuse the site. Thoughts?
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I don't really think that's the answer. The time tested answer to most of these problems is the same as always: don't reply to anything you don't want to encourage. I.E. if it's a very easily searched question, simply don't respond. They will get tired of waiting and go search for it or post it elsewhere. Unfortunately this never seems to work here, even the most seasoned and experienced users seem to have no ability to ignore those messages that nearly everyone knows *should* be ignored. I don't know why this is, but it's the heart of your problem. The site is really at a crossroads, marketing and business people always say if you aren't growing constantly you're falling behind, I think that's utter crap personally but I'm sure that's the sort of advice or demands you are getting from whoever the powers that be are in this case. One symptom of the problem that is potentially quite damaging is that a lot of the "old timers" here have expressed a point of view that they don't frequent the programming boards any more because of the high number of "bad" posts in them. This is a serious problem for Codeproject if it's a real trend and continues; unless you are hoping to just turn over users as they get more experienced and move on then new ones take their place to help out there. At the very least I think you need to have *someone* patrol the boards and when a poster is being disrespectful or rude for no good reason give them one warning then terminate their account immediately if it happens again or they don't remove or re-word their message. And remove those messages. You have to think of the image of the site overall and be pretty ruthless about it, even more so as you get an ever higher volume of users. CodeProject is big enough that it's well overdue for constant professional "pruning" and grooming, having users do some of that work may help but it might also open a big can of worms as well, particularly when you start talking about banishing etc. I know the idea of a self policing site sounds all groovy and feel goody but in practice it can turn ugly as you hand over more and more power to the users. Sometimes you need a sherrif to keep the peace, not a bunch of deputies.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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Not that kind of stuff, the stuff indicated where someone is rude and disrespectful when someone attempts to help them. Those links are to a person who is just completely dense, that's a different thing entirely.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
Would fit in the "hall of shame" category though...
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:rant: It's been a while since I've been active on the programming forums mainly because I've been very busy these last months, but I was having one of those "bored" moments and I decided to have a look. I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is. It has seriously degraded since the last times I visited them. Especially the ASP.NET forum. I also know there was a lot of talk on numerous occasions as well about redesigning the forums and John Simmons has iterated this as long as I can remember, but I really think we need to find some solution for this problem because it is sad what's going on. And it's just bringing down the community. Probably some system where valuable users of the community can somehow mark these messages so that they're moved a couple of pages away or move them to a beginner's sister forum of the main forum. I know there is a high level of work going on into improving the website by trying to solve all sort of problems like article moderation, etc, but I think this is also something that needs to be looked into, because it's just sad what's going on. [EDIT] My suggestion is having a sister forum for each programming forum (or at least for the ones that are having troubles). A beginner's forum, where valuable users of the community can move those questions that are ultimately the straightforward "google it" or just so simple that they don't even deserve mention on a serious programming forum. [/EDIT]
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
Though it's a good suggestion/idea, I can see CP is getting complex day by day and someday it's may be looking like an online OS. lol :). Chris should try hard to retain his employees who might be the brains behind all these wirings. :)
OK,. what country just started work for the day ? The ASP.NET forum is flooded with retarded questions. -Christian Graus Best wishes to Rexx[^]
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Thoughts?
Burn them on a stake!
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 3 out nowFirst, place the heads on pikes outside the castle walls as a warning to others. Then burn the body at the stake.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
:rant: It's been a while since I've been active on the programming forums mainly because I've been very busy these last months, but I was having one of those "bored" moments and I decided to have a look. I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is. It has seriously degraded since the last times I visited them. Especially the ASP.NET forum. I also know there was a lot of talk on numerous occasions as well about redesigning the forums and John Simmons has iterated this as long as I can remember, but I really think we need to find some solution for this problem because it is sad what's going on. And it's just bringing down the community. Probably some system where valuable users of the community can somehow mark these messages so that they're moved a couple of pages away or move them to a beginner's sister forum of the main forum. I know there is a high level of work going on into improving the website by trying to solve all sort of problems like article moderation, etc, but I think this is also something that needs to be looked into, because it's just sad what's going on. [EDIT] My suggestion is having a sister forum for each programming forum (or at least for the ones that are having troubles). A beginner's forum, where valuable users of the community can move those questions that are ultimately the straightforward "google it" or just so simple that they don't even deserve mention on a serious programming forum. [/EDIT]
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
If there was a button like 'Mark as Spam/ Inappropriate' it would be easier to sort them. Not everone needs to have that button visible to click.
Maruf Maniruzzaman Dhaka, Bangladesh. Homepage: http://www.kuashaonline.com
[Blog] [Silverlight Clone] [Resume] -
For a new or lowly rated member instead of creating a question, spawn a new window with a Google search on the title. This will be annoying, especialy when the title is "urgent send me the codez". If the body has more that # spelling error refuse to accept the question. This may help all posters to improve spelling;P. Run the body through a content check and any occurence of the usual stock phrases causes the keyboard to disconnect all keys.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Ah, I am very bad at this. :((
Maruf Maniruzzaman Dhaka, Bangladesh. Homepage: http://www.kuashaonline.com
[Blog] [Silverlight Clone] [Resume] -
:rant: It's been a while since I've been active on the programming forums mainly because I've been very busy these last months, but I was having one of those "bored" moments and I decided to have a look. I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is. It has seriously degraded since the last times I visited them. Especially the ASP.NET forum. I also know there was a lot of talk on numerous occasions as well about redesigning the forums and John Simmons has iterated this as long as I can remember, but I really think we need to find some solution for this problem because it is sad what's going on. And it's just bringing down the community. Probably some system where valuable users of the community can somehow mark these messages so that they're moved a couple of pages away or move them to a beginner's sister forum of the main forum. I know there is a high level of work going on into improving the website by trying to solve all sort of problems like article moderation, etc, but I think this is also something that needs to be looked into, because it's just sad what's going on. [EDIT] My suggestion is having a sister forum for each programming forum (or at least for the ones that are having troubles). A beginner's forum, where valuable users of the community can move those questions that are ultimately the straightforward "google it" or just so simple that they don't even deserve mention on a serious programming forum. [/EDIT]
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
Mircea Grelus wrote:
I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is.
You shouldn't be surprised. I don't think the forums have ever escaped a state of degradation. The forums are littered with threads by <euphemism>the lower lifeforms of Code Project's ecosystem</euphemism> as far back as I can look. Sure, there are worthy questions here and there, but the sheer masses of those unworthy questions act as a deterrent to those who would have otherwise wanted to help someone.
So the creationist says: Everything must have a designer. God designed everything. I say: Why is God the only exception? Why not make the "designs" (like man) exceptions and make God a creation of man?
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What we need perhaps is for the lounge to be notified when someone replies that way so we can all go in there and excercise some peer pressure to make it clear it's not acceptible from a larger number of people.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Thoughts?
Burn them on a stake!
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 3 out nowI'd bake them in an oven. There is no relief because there are no cool air currents inside, effectively raising the flame's efficiency. :)
So the creationist says: Everything must have a designer. God designed everything. I say: Why is God the only exception? Why not make the "designs" (like man) exceptions and make God a creation of man?
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Mircea Grelus wrote:
I've heard a lot of talk about the poor quality of forums lately but I must say I was really surprised at how bad it is.
You shouldn't be surprised. I don't think the forums have ever escaped a state of degradation. The forums are littered with threads by <euphemism>the lower lifeforms of Code Project's ecosystem</euphemism> as far back as I can look. Sure, there are worthy questions here and there, but the sheer masses of those unworthy questions act as a deterrent to those who would have otherwise wanted to help someone.
So the creationist says: Everything must have a designer. God designed everything. I say: Why is God the only exception? Why not make the "designs" (like man) exceptions and make God a creation of man?
I have to disagree. I remember when active on the ASP.NET forum that there were indeed stupid questions, but their number was not that high. I remember occasionally being amazed at the incompetence of some users, but quickly moved on the the serious posters. This happend, but there were far more valuable questions than abuses. Nowadays there are valuable questions as well, but it's difficult to find them. You have to search through the bunch of crap and go several pages deep. And this is only one part of the problem. I also get annoyed because of the stupid questions and the behavior of people so I get out of there.
Cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
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I'm hoping to have something out in the next few days that will surface the good stuff a little easier. In terms of member's behaving badly I'm tempted by the idea of allow community banishing of those members who abuse the site. Thoughts?
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
"Abusing the site" comes with many definitions and gray areas. Given the nature of the way many people vote here, I would vote against this idea unless: 1) Those allowed to banish abusers was a very select group (maybe just platinum members), and/or... 2) It would be impossible to banish platinum members or anyone that is or ever has been an MVP or other CP awardee. 3) The final decision to ban someone isn't based on some obscure site algorithm, but instead is that of the site admin or someone equally highly placed in the CodeProject hierarchy. Why, you ask? Yes, you're correct - I'm more concerned about MY status here. If the "community" is allowed to ban people, I have enough knuckleheads following me around here that it is not inconceivable that I would be voted out in short order (I mean, seriously - the ratio of Indians to programmers here heavily favors the Indians). (See? I can't help myself. This was a joke, but I'm sure a number of clueless retards are going to see this as an affront to their national pride, and if allowed, would happily mark this message as "abusing the site".)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
First, place the heads on pikes outside the castle walls as a warning to others. Then burn the body at the stake.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]+10 man-points (You would have gotten 15 man-points if you had mentioned consuming their still warm and steaming entrails.)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Chris Maunder wrote:
Thoughts?
Burn them on a stake!
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 3 out now+5 man points. (You lack imagination, but I appreciate the effort you put in)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I'd bake them in an oven. There is no relief because there are no cool air currents inside, effectively raising the flame's efficiency. :)
So the creationist says: Everything must have a designer. God designed everything. I say: Why is God the only exception? Why not make the "designs" (like man) exceptions and make God a creation of man?
-5 man-points. (Only women use ovens. Men use whatever's handy and enjoy the sight of ANYTHING burning with an open flame.)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I don't really think that's the answer. The time tested answer to most of these problems is the same as always: don't reply to anything you don't want to encourage. I.E. if it's a very easily searched question, simply don't respond. They will get tired of waiting and go search for it or post it elsewhere. Unfortunately this never seems to work here, even the most seasoned and experienced users seem to have no ability to ignore those messages that nearly everyone knows *should* be ignored. I don't know why this is, but it's the heart of your problem. The site is really at a crossroads, marketing and business people always say if you aren't growing constantly you're falling behind, I think that's utter crap personally but I'm sure that's the sort of advice or demands you are getting from whoever the powers that be are in this case. One symptom of the problem that is potentially quite damaging is that a lot of the "old timers" here have expressed a point of view that they don't frequent the programming boards any more because of the high number of "bad" posts in them. This is a serious problem for Codeproject if it's a real trend and continues; unless you are hoping to just turn over users as they get more experienced and move on then new ones take their place to help out there. At the very least I think you need to have *someone* patrol the boards and when a poster is being disrespectful or rude for no good reason give them one warning then terminate their account immediately if it happens again or they don't remove or re-word their message. And remove those messages. You have to think of the image of the site overall and be pretty ruthless about it, even more so as you get an ever higher volume of users. CodeProject is big enough that it's well overdue for constant professional "pruning" and grooming, having users do some of that work may help but it might also open a big can of worms as well, particularly when you start talking about banishing etc. I know the idea of a self policing site sounds all groovy and feel goody but in practice it can turn ugly as you hand over more and more power to the users. Sometimes you need a sherrif to keep the peace, not a bunch of deputies.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
John C wrote:
Unfortunately this never seems to work here, even the most seasoned and experienced users seem to have no ability to ignore those messages that nearly everyone knows *should* be ignored. I don't know why this is, but it's the heart of your problem.
Maybe a solution would be to punish the responders(Troll feeders :)) of these messages?
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+10 man-points (You would have gotten 15 man-points if you had mentioned consuming their still warm and steaming entrails.)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Why would I want to pollute my manly body with their entrails? Feed it to the peasants; they're used to such offal on their table.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]
