Building a box
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I plug them in wrong all the time, and I can assure you that the only thing that will happen is the light won't come on.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
and I can assure you that the only thing that will happen is the light won't come on.
lol! Well, I can assure you I've had the problem I've described. Well, admittedly that was many years ago and hopefully the whole system is a bit more robust now. Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Rather. But remember this golden rule: if you plug in one of the cables going to a front panel LED reversed (getting the polarity wrong, and believe me, these motherboards from China make it very difficult to even realize there's such a thing as polarity, we could use Nixon here), the computer won't boot. It won't even start up.
Mine booted... just that when it was on, the light went off and when it was off the light came on :doh:
martin_hughes wrote:
when it was off the light came on
Quick! Patent that! Power (even if only ma) from nothing! Marc
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Essentially, the best way to keep costs down is to buy a motherboard with the necessary built-on components, especially video and sound. The built-on stuff is generally moderately far below the add-on stuff as far as performance is concerned, but that's to be expected. Further, these are dev boxes, so you don't generally need anything more. The process of selecting hardware for a dev box is remarkably similar to building a NAS box, and the same considerations apply. Hardware First, I would go with an AMD based system. The CPUs are simply less expensive than Intel's. Next, when you chose a motherboard, pay attention to how many SATA connectors it has. You'll want to stay away from the SATA 1 stuff because it's simply old tech and not as fast as SATA2. When you get a CPU, there really is no difference between OEM and retail other than the warranty (and sometimes, OEM costs more than retail - weird!). Get dual core and nothing slower than 2.0 Ghz. I would also advise that you stay away from Phenom-class CPUs until all of the defective chips are pretty much eliminated from the retail channel (plus they cost more than non-Phenom chips). Unless you absolutely need one, don't bother with an internal floppy drive. Most motherboards have at least one IDE connector - I advise that you use this connector for a CD-ROM drive. Ignore built-on video. Most of the time you only get one connector - and it's an analog one. Most programmers I know use multiple monitors, so this almost requirey ou to buy an add-on video card. Don't freak out, though, you can get dual connector cards for $50 (or less) I think. Cooling When you get a case, get one that has AT LEAST one 120mm fan exhaust opening. Having a 120mm intake opening is that much better. If you get the case I recommend in my NAS article, you'll spend about $60 and get a decent case (I now have three of these at home). DO NOT use the heatsink/fan that comes with your CPU. Buy a better one, and preferably one that uses a 120mm fan. I'm fixated on 120mm fans. They push a crapload of air and make very little noise in the process. You can further reduce the fan noise by hooking them up to a fan rheostat panel. This allows you to reduce the RPM of the individual fans without sacrificing too much air flow (programmers hate noisy machines). If you'd like, I can get a NewEgg parts list together for you that should result in stable, reliable machines.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
DO NOT use the heatsink/fan that comes with your CPU. Buy a better one, and preferably one that uses a 120mm fan.
This is true if you go for the AMD CPU. Retail Intel CPUs come with pretty beefy heatsinks and you shouldn't need to worry about buying a bigger one unless you're planning to overclock. Edit: This used to be true, but it may not be anymore. I haven't built an AMD box since the K7 came out.
Imagine that you are hired to build a bridge over a river. The width of the river increases slightly every day, except when it shrinks. Your budget does not allow for you to use concrete or steel - you can only afford timber and cut stone. Gravity changes from hour to hour, as does the viscosity of air. Your only tools are a hacksaw, a chainsaw, a rubber mallet, and a length of rope. Welcome to my world. -Me explaining my job to an engineer
modified on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:38 PM
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For years I had a local hardware guy, but he went out of business recently. I've bought a couple of boxes from Dell, but find expandability (e.g., proprietery hard drive mounting brackets, etc.) to be an issue. Additionally, it's becoming more of a consideration to be sure I can get XP drivers as I've backed away from Vista, and that's touch and go with the big companies. I know some of you build your own boxes and since I've not travelled that path, I thought I'd ask a question or two. First, if you buy components from someone like NewEgg, etc. how does the price of the finished box stack up to the large manufacturers? Beyond the recording studio, I don't need Screaming Game Machines, just average dev and file serving computers, and I don't want to spend any more money on them than I have to. Secondly, how much of a learning curve is there? I understand that conceptually you get a case, drop in a motherboard, power supply, memory and some peripherals. However, since I'm not a professional hardware geek (and have no time or desire to become one), I don't know what gotchas await the uninitiated. It would be nice to be in complete control of my boxes instead of having to put up with large, draconian or apathetic corporations. However, the point is to eliminate a source of pain, not create a whole new one. How cheap and easy is this?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Coming soon: Got a career question? Ask the Attack Chihuahua! www.PracticalUSA.com
You've gotten a lot of good recommendations, so I can only add a little. 1. Get a good quality case. The cheaper you go the more apt it is to not have things align correctly. Whenever I've done it, that's been the biggest frustration. 2. Know all of the components that you need and research every one of them to make sure you're buying exactly what you want and need. An hour up front will save you headaches having to return something that's not compatible. 3. Use common sense. Components come from different countries like China and Taiwan and their instructions may not be accurate. If in doubt, ask before trying. 4. Don't plug it in until you've verified each connector is properly seated, secured and with the correct polarity. Don't make any adjustments while the box is powered up. Leave the out case off until you know it's running well. Nothing's more frustrating than tightening the screws and then having to remove everything because a memory chip or ribbon isn't seated properly. You may not get much cost savings but you'll get exactly what you want. Just spec out what you want. Good luck. The board's here to help in any event.
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I've only ever built for home use. Technically, it's easy, everything pretty much just plugs together. Do your research thoroughly though, make sure your ram is compatible with your motherboard etc. It can take time though, so I wouldn't recommend it if your building lots or regularly for work. Compared to buying from Dell, it is more expensive to build your own for the general spec/low end pcs. You can make some cost savings though if you can re-use things like monitors, cd drives, keyboards etc. weather it works out cheaper in the end though depends on what you have to re-use, and what value you place on the re-used parts. I've also brought 'barebones' systems in the past which are case+motherboard+cpu combos. You know the parts work together, and it saves some time if it comes assembled, and you know the parts work together. For home use, I will never go back to buying. You get exactly the pc you want, with no pants trial/ad software pre installed. and you don't get any dodgy unbranded hardware that you can never find drivers for. (The last dell I brought came with what they called a 56k modem, yes it was a while ago, which turned out to be a 33k modem with some kind of software to speed it up, and windows only drivers)
Simon
Simon Stevens wrote:
I've also brought 'barebones' systems in the past which are case+motherboard+cpu combos. You know the parts work together, and it saves some time if it comes assembled, and you know the parts work together.
these combos often have really doggy mobos and are being bundled because they can't be gotten rid of any other way. The PSUs are often suspect as well. They tend towards eitehr crap grade or 5+ year old designs that can't reliably power new systems (P4/A64 and later run the CPU/mobo primarily off 12V, older boards were 3.3/5V powered).
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
How cheap and easy is this?
I built my box about year and a half back. I bought all the components from NewEgg. The components turned to be cheaper by about $250 (and I purchased some high quality components too) comapred to buying a box. It took about 3 hrs to assemble it. It was pretty straight-forward. There was a temporary scare when the display did not show up the first time when I tuned on the machine, but it was due to a loose connector. Since then the system is working perfectly. I installed pre-per Beta of Vista that time. The installation failed on any other machine I used to install Vista. But that was the first machine where it was successful.:) Also using NewEgg it id extremely difficult to go wroing as far as purchasing the right components is concerned. The site is extremely helpful in providing the right components. It is extremely easy. If you are scared I can come over and help you do it. ;)
You have, what I would term, a very formal turn of phrase not seen in these isles since the old King passed from this world to the next. martin_hughes on VDK
Agree on the newegg bit. Even if you end up buying elsehwere for less, the egg is the one site I never worry about bogus/censored review comments to inflate the rating. Bad parts will be clearly savaged in the reviews.
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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For years I had a local hardware guy, but he went out of business recently. I've bought a couple of boxes from Dell, but find expandability (e.g., proprietery hard drive mounting brackets, etc.) to be an issue. Additionally, it's becoming more of a consideration to be sure I can get XP drivers as I've backed away from Vista, and that's touch and go with the big companies. I know some of you build your own boxes and since I've not travelled that path, I thought I'd ask a question or two. First, if you buy components from someone like NewEgg, etc. how does the price of the finished box stack up to the large manufacturers? Beyond the recording studio, I don't need Screaming Game Machines, just average dev and file serving computers, and I don't want to spend any more money on them than I have to. Secondly, how much of a learning curve is there? I understand that conceptually you get a case, drop in a motherboard, power supply, memory and some peripherals. However, since I'm not a professional hardware geek (and have no time or desire to become one), I don't know what gotchas await the uninitiated. It would be nice to be in complete control of my boxes instead of having to put up with large, draconian or apathetic corporations. However, the point is to eliminate a source of pain, not create a whole new one. How cheap and easy is this?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Coming soon: Got a career question? Ask the Attack Chihuahua! www.PracticalUSA.com
Very cheap and very easy. Have a look at some of the barebones specials available at sites like Tiger Direct for some ideas on just how cheap these things can be. For example: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800 with case, PSU, MB and 1GB RAM for $150 ($130 after rebate)[^] You can even get systems that already have the motherboard mounted in the case with the fan and CPU already mounted as well. Those two things have always been the hardest part of building a system for me. Mounting and connecting things like the PSU and drives is quite simple. Installation of RAM is pretty easy as well, although you may have to pay attention to the manual to make sure things like dual-channel RAMs are in the correct slots. The longest part of the process (for me) is installation of the OS! After booting Windows, you will need to spend some time installing MB-specific drivers, but this usually takes only a few reboots. You should know someone that has done this a few times before, just so you do not panic and can get help in the event that the system will not POST correctly or just beeps at you, but IME these are most often caused by mismounting of the CPU, video card, or RAM. Oh, and watch those chassis edges - today's cases are a bit better, but I still slice my hand or finger at least once on an edge somewhere... (Once cut my knuckle right to the bone!) :) Have fun! If you decide not to build it yourself, you can get a system from a builder, and they usually smoke test the system before shipment and even offer warranties. Check out Pricewatch for some builders that deals that they may have. Peace!
-=- James
Please rate this message - let me know if I helped or not! * * *If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
See DeleteFXPFiles -
Have built every computer I've ever owned apart from the laptops. Pricewise I generally find it's cheaper than finding a PC of similar specs and more satisfactory because I specify what I want and don't need to waste extra money, just get the absolute minimum I need, for example pilfering spare hard-drives from other machines etc. The hardest bits I feel are getting the software installed, while not particularly hard I've had more gotcha's than with the hardware. As John said the AMDs are cheaper and I find them to be much more configurable. A plus side is that they tend to allow forwards-or-backwards compatability more. For example I stuck with AMD for my latest desktop because unlike Intel (at the time anyway, I think) they said that the new quad-core processors would be backwards compatible with the "old" AM2+ sockets which were the only ones available at the time. You do get a bargain, I remember that my 2.0GHz AMD X2 cost £50 but can be overclocked to something like 2.5GHz of which at the time you were spending almost half-again for the processor (not that I run it that high, it is overclocked to about 2.15GHz just by a simple option in the BIOS). Once you've done it a couple of times it'll become second nature, I think my desktop was up and running inside 30 minutes (minus software). Vista took another ~30 minutes to install so all up and running in just over an hour. Then assign a week configuring Windows and installing software just so :rolleyes:.
Ed.Poore wrote:
As John said the AMDs are cheaper and I find them to be much more configurable. A plus side is that they tend to allow forwards-or-backwards compatability more.
I'd dispute the more back compatible bit. Intels S775 has needed bios upgrades to run a new chip in an old mobo. Running an older chip in a new mobo's never been an issue. In the same time AMD's gone through 3 or 4 completely incompatable sockets: AM2, S939, S754, (S469? Not sure when S754 replaced this one). Going forward Intel is going to have a real break at the end of the year with the new Nehelem CPU using a completely different (AMD style) set of mobo-CPU connections and a brand new socket. In the short term that gives AMD a bit of an advantage, but Chipzillas cheaper 45nm process and significantly faster performance per clock cycle means that in terms of cost per actual performance (as opposed to cost per MHz). At the semi-high end both have $200 quads. Intels is clocked faster (2.4 vs 2.0) as well as having a higher IPC out of the box. If you're overclocking it's even larger since AMDs are typically hitting a wall around 2.5ghz while intels have no trouble hitting 3.0 on stock cooling, with 3.5ish being reasonable with a good aftermarket cooler.
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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To avoid problems and reduce complexity, do NOT raid your drives.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Well, RAID 1 (mirroring) is OK. Generally. You can still run into the problem that drives from the same batch will tend to fail in the same way at the same time, leaving you with no benefit. Try to get drives from different batches or even different manufacturers. RAID 0 is highly unsafe - the failure rate of the array is the failure rate of each drive multiplied together (e.g. a 3% chance of failure of each drive becomes a 9% chance for two drives, 27% for three drives, 81% for four drives, and it's a good thing that 3% is a massive overestimate). It can be OK if you do RAID 10 which is a striped mirror - you have a redundant drive for each stripe, so it reduces the chances of losing the whole set. RAID 5 is a bit of a compromise which gives most of the read benefit of RAID 0, but it heavily penalises writes. If you don't write a whole stripe at a time, the system must read the current contents of the stripe and corresponding parity, then write back the stripe and the parity. A whole-stripe-write only incurs the stripe and parity writes. Caching controllers can give some benefit here in accumulating writes in order to build a whole stripe, or cache the data last read or written to avoid the read penalty on write-back. With any form of RAID but especially RAID 0, make sure you're taking and verifying backups, and testing restores. RAID only protects against hardware failures. Software errors on writing to a disk will get mirrored to the other disk.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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Very cheap and very easy. Have a look at some of the barebones specials available at sites like Tiger Direct for some ideas on just how cheap these things can be. For example: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800 with case, PSU, MB and 1GB RAM for $150 ($130 after rebate)[^] You can even get systems that already have the motherboard mounted in the case with the fan and CPU already mounted as well. Those two things have always been the hardest part of building a system for me. Mounting and connecting things like the PSU and drives is quite simple. Installation of RAM is pretty easy as well, although you may have to pay attention to the manual to make sure things like dual-channel RAMs are in the correct slots. The longest part of the process (for me) is installation of the OS! After booting Windows, you will need to spend some time installing MB-specific drivers, but this usually takes only a few reboots. You should know someone that has done this a few times before, just so you do not panic and can get help in the event that the system will not POST correctly or just beeps at you, but IME these are most often caused by mismounting of the CPU, video card, or RAM. Oh, and watch those chassis edges - today's cases are a bit better, but I still slice my hand or finger at least once on an edge somewhere... (Once cut my knuckle right to the bone!) :) Have fun! If you decide not to build it yourself, you can get a system from a builder, and they usually smoke test the system before shipment and even offer warranties. Check out Pricewatch for some builders that deals that they may have. Peace!
-=- James
Please rate this message - let me know if I helped or not! * * *If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
See DeleteFXPFilesJames R. Twine wrote:
Oh, and watch those chassis edges - today's cases are a bit better, but I still slice my hand or finger at least once on an edge somewhere... (Once cut my knuckle right to the bone!)
Even the cheap cases I've seen the last few years all've had folded edges. What I would recomend to a newbie builder is to get a larger case than absolutely needed (full ATX with mATX or fullATX with inch of space around the mobo), it makes it much easier to get at parts around the edge of the board.
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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Simon Stevens wrote:
I've also brought 'barebones' systems in the past which are case+motherboard+cpu combos. You know the parts work together, and it saves some time if it comes assembled, and you know the parts work together.
these combos often have really doggy mobos and are being bundled because they can't be gotten rid of any other way. The PSUs are often suspect as well. They tend towards eitehr crap grade or 5+ year old designs that can't reliably power new systems (P4/A64 and later run the CPU/mobo primarily off 12V, older boards were 3.3/5V powered).
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
Oh, cool thanks. I didn't know that, I'll look very carefully next time if I do that again. The last combo I brought (my current PC) was quite specific, it had a named brand (biostar) motherboard and PSU that I had checked out beforehand. I haven't had any trouble with them so far.
Simon
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Essentially, the best way to keep costs down is to buy a motherboard with the necessary built-on components, especially video and sound. The built-on stuff is generally moderately far below the add-on stuff as far as performance is concerned, but that's to be expected. Further, these are dev boxes, so you don't generally need anything more. The process of selecting hardware for a dev box is remarkably similar to building a NAS box, and the same considerations apply. Hardware First, I would go with an AMD based system. The CPUs are simply less expensive than Intel's. Next, when you chose a motherboard, pay attention to how many SATA connectors it has. You'll want to stay away from the SATA 1 stuff because it's simply old tech and not as fast as SATA2. When you get a CPU, there really is no difference between OEM and retail other than the warranty (and sometimes, OEM costs more than retail - weird!). Get dual core and nothing slower than 2.0 Ghz. I would also advise that you stay away from Phenom-class CPUs until all of the defective chips are pretty much eliminated from the retail channel (plus they cost more than non-Phenom chips). Unless you absolutely need one, don't bother with an internal floppy drive. Most motherboards have at least one IDE connector - I advise that you use this connector for a CD-ROM drive. Ignore built-on video. Most of the time you only get one connector - and it's an analog one. Most programmers I know use multiple monitors, so this almost requirey ou to buy an add-on video card. Don't freak out, though, you can get dual connector cards for $50 (or less) I think. Cooling When you get a case, get one that has AT LEAST one 120mm fan exhaust opening. Having a 120mm intake opening is that much better. If you get the case I recommend in my NAS article, you'll spend about $60 and get a decent case (I now have three of these at home). DO NOT use the heatsink/fan that comes with your CPU. Buy a better one, and preferably one that uses a 120mm fan. I'm fixated on 120mm fans. They push a crapload of air and make very little noise in the process. You can further reduce the fan noise by hooking them up to a fan rheostat panel. This allows you to reduce the RPM of the individual fans without sacrificing too much air flow (programmers hate noisy machines). If you'd like, I can get a NewEgg parts list together for you that should result in stable, reliable machines.
AMD CPUs may be slightly less expensive than Intel, but I find the Intel Core 2 Duo line-up to be a far superior processor. I've also had more problems with NVidia chipsets for AMD than with Intel ones.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Have built every computer I've ever owned apart from the laptops. Pricewise I generally find it's cheaper than finding a PC of similar specs and more satisfactory because I specify what I want and don't need to waste extra money, just get the absolute minimum I need, for example pilfering spare hard-drives from other machines etc. The hardest bits I feel are getting the software installed, while not particularly hard I've had more gotcha's than with the hardware. As John said the AMDs are cheaper and I find them to be much more configurable. A plus side is that they tend to allow forwards-or-backwards compatability more. For example I stuck with AMD for my latest desktop because unlike Intel (at the time anyway, I think) they said that the new quad-core processors would be backwards compatible with the "old" AM2+ sockets which were the only ones available at the time. You do get a bargain, I remember that my 2.0GHz AMD X2 cost £50 but can be overclocked to something like 2.5GHz of which at the time you were spending almost half-again for the processor (not that I run it that high, it is overclocked to about 2.15GHz just by a simple option in the BIOS). Once you've done it a couple of times it'll become second nature, I think my desktop was up and running inside 30 minutes (minus software). Vista took another ~30 minutes to install so all up and running in just over an hour. Then assign a week configuring Windows and installing software just so :rolleyes:.
Ed.Poore wrote:
they tend to allow forwards-or-backwards compatability more.
not exactly true... but a pleasantly repeated myth. AMD 754? AMD 939? No, both companies "attempt" to think ahead, but this is not easy when you don't know what is going to happen. Both companies have prototypes a generation or two ahead so have plans they can build upon, but do not know the plans of the other company. When competition and technological advancements outside the main chip require updating the socket to take advantage of the new capability, share more with a bridge chip, or any other unplanned expansion, the socket changes. This used to happen often for both companies, now it is getting rarer and rarer as more things are moved to bridge chips and your north-bridge/south-bridge are the non-compatible monsters, and the cpu's move up the chain with no more than a bios upgrade (and rarer and rarer for that).
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
DO NOT use the heatsink/fan that comes with your CPU. Buy a better one, and preferably one that uses a 120mm fan.
This is true if you go for the AMD CPU. Retail Intel CPUs come with pretty beefy heatsinks and you shouldn't need to worry about buying a bigger one unless you're planning to overclock. Edit: This used to be true, but it may not be anymore. I haven't built an AMD box since the K7 came out.
Imagine that you are hired to build a bridge over a river. The width of the river increases slightly every day, except when it shrinks. Your budget does not allow for you to use concrete or steel - you can only afford timber and cut stone. Gravity changes from hour to hour, as does the viscosity of air. Your only tools are a hacksaw, a chainsaw, a rubber mallet, and a length of rope. Welcome to my world. -Me explaining my job to an engineer
modified on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:38 PM
The ones that come with the AMD CPU's are fine - it's just better to use something bigger to cut down on noise (big heatsink means big fan). I haven't used a stock heatsink since 1992.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
AMD CPUs may be slightly less expensive than Intel, but I find the Intel Core 2 Duo line-up to be a far superior processor. I've also had more problems with NVidia chipsets for AMD than with Intel ones.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I'm not going to be pulled into a which is best discussion. The plain and simple truth is that he needs boxes for developers for as little money as possible (not an unreasonable request). AMD is the best bang-for-the-buck solution available. And I've never had a problem with chipsets for AMD...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
For years I had a local hardware guy, but he went out of business recently. I've bought a couple of boxes from Dell, but find expandability (e.g., proprietery hard drive mounting brackets, etc.) to be an issue. Additionally, it's becoming more of a consideration to be sure I can get XP drivers as I've backed away from Vista, and that's touch and go with the big companies. I know some of you build your own boxes and since I've not travelled that path, I thought I'd ask a question or two. First, if you buy components from someone like NewEgg, etc. how does the price of the finished box stack up to the large manufacturers? Beyond the recording studio, I don't need Screaming Game Machines, just average dev and file serving computers, and I don't want to spend any more money on them than I have to. Secondly, how much of a learning curve is there? I understand that conceptually you get a case, drop in a motherboard, power supply, memory and some peripherals. However, since I'm not a professional hardware geek (and have no time or desire to become one), I don't know what gotchas await the uninitiated. It would be nice to be in complete control of my boxes instead of having to put up with large, draconian or apathetic corporations. However, the point is to eliminate a source of pain, not create a whole new one. How cheap and easy is this?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Coming soon: Got a career question? Ask the Attack Chihuahua! www.PracticalUSA.com
If games aren't important, it's really hard to beat Dell Vostro systems by building yourself. The biggest problem I've seen with the Vostro systems are motherboards that use older Intel 965 graphics chipsets which have limited support for widescreen display resolutions. EDIT: Dell has Vostro Systems for $400, including display, which is more than capable as a development system. They've updated the motherboard over several we have at my office so they actually support the accompanying display in native resolution.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Well, RAID 1 (mirroring) is OK. Generally. You can still run into the problem that drives from the same batch will tend to fail in the same way at the same time, leaving you with no benefit. Try to get drives from different batches or even different manufacturers. RAID 0 is highly unsafe - the failure rate of the array is the failure rate of each drive multiplied together (e.g. a 3% chance of failure of each drive becomes a 9% chance for two drives, 27% for three drives, 81% for four drives, and it's a good thing that 3% is a massive overestimate). It can be OK if you do RAID 10 which is a striped mirror - you have a redundant drive for each stripe, so it reduces the chances of losing the whole set. RAID 5 is a bit of a compromise which gives most of the read benefit of RAID 0, but it heavily penalises writes. If you don't write a whole stripe at a time, the system must read the current contents of the stripe and corresponding parity, then write back the stripe and the parity. A whole-stripe-write only incurs the stripe and parity writes. Caching controllers can give some benefit here in accumulating writes in order to build a whole stripe, or cache the data last read or written to avoid the read penalty on write-back. With any form of RAID but especially RAID 0, make sure you're taking and verifying backups, and testing restores. RAID only protects against hardware failures. Software errors on writing to a disk will get mirrored to the other disk.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
Mike Dimmick wrote:
RAID 0 is highly unsafe - the failure rate of the array is the failure rate of each drive multiplied together (e.g. a 3% chance of failure of each drive becomes a 9% chance for two drives, 27% for three drives, 81% for four drives, and it's a good thing that 3% is a massive overestimate). It can be OK if you do RAID 10 which is a striped mirror - you have a redundant drive for each stripe, so it reduces the chances of losing the whole set.
Your math is wrong here. The proper calculation is that you have a 97% chance of non failure raised to the power of hte number of drives. 2 drives is .97^2 = 94.09% chance of nonfailure or ~6% of failure. 3 drives is 92.26, 4 88.53%. The easy way to demonstrate that your calculation is wrong is to look at 2 drives with a 10% failure rate. The odds of both failing isn't 10*10=100%.
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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Oh, cool thanks. I didn't know that, I'll look very carefully next time if I do that again. The last combo I brought (my current PC) was quite specific, it had a named brand (biostar) motherboard and PSU that I had checked out beforehand. I haven't had any trouble with them so far.
Simon
There are good combos out there, but there're also rotten ones. Tigerdirect and it's machspeed ones are especially bad, their 'better' ones generally use nVidia chipsets which are currently only worth buying for SLI because otherwise Intels are better in terms of reliability and features.
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
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For years I had a local hardware guy, but he went out of business recently. I've bought a couple of boxes from Dell, but find expandability (e.g., proprietery hard drive mounting brackets, etc.) to be an issue. Additionally, it's becoming more of a consideration to be sure I can get XP drivers as I've backed away from Vista, and that's touch and go with the big companies. I know some of you build your own boxes and since I've not travelled that path, I thought I'd ask a question or two. First, if you buy components from someone like NewEgg, etc. how does the price of the finished box stack up to the large manufacturers? Beyond the recording studio, I don't need Screaming Game Machines, just average dev and file serving computers, and I don't want to spend any more money on them than I have to. Secondly, how much of a learning curve is there? I understand that conceptually you get a case, drop in a motherboard, power supply, memory and some peripherals. However, since I'm not a professional hardware geek (and have no time or desire to become one), I don't know what gotchas await the uninitiated. It would be nice to be in complete control of my boxes instead of having to put up with large, draconian or apathetic corporations. However, the point is to eliminate a source of pain, not create a whole new one. How cheap and easy is this?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Coming soon: Got a career question? Ask the Attack Chihuahua! www.PracticalUSA.com
I've built one or two with no trouble at all. But not from mail-order; I've gone to the local Fry's to pick out the parts.
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For years I had a local hardware guy, but he went out of business recently. I've bought a couple of boxes from Dell, but find expandability (e.g., proprietery hard drive mounting brackets, etc.) to be an issue. Additionally, it's becoming more of a consideration to be sure I can get XP drivers as I've backed away from Vista, and that's touch and go with the big companies. I know some of you build your own boxes and since I've not travelled that path, I thought I'd ask a question or two. First, if you buy components from someone like NewEgg, etc. how does the price of the finished box stack up to the large manufacturers? Beyond the recording studio, I don't need Screaming Game Machines, just average dev and file serving computers, and I don't want to spend any more money on them than I have to. Secondly, how much of a learning curve is there? I understand that conceptually you get a case, drop in a motherboard, power supply, memory and some peripherals. However, since I'm not a professional hardware geek (and have no time or desire to become one), I don't know what gotchas await the uninitiated. It would be nice to be in complete control of my boxes instead of having to put up with large, draconian or apathetic corporations. However, the point is to eliminate a source of pain, not create a whole new one. How cheap and easy is this?
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Coming soon: Got a career question? Ask the Attack Chihuahua! www.PracticalUSA.com
Having been working a hardware guy / system support for many years before I have to say that you don't build yourself to save money, you simply won't. You do it for the personal control and to get exactly what you want. There's not much of a learning curve I have to admit. But keeping up to date with the constant flow of new products is something for the geeky mind. I personally always put some extra time and money into getting the best most appropriate boxes and motherboards. Don't cheap out on memory. Bad memory and/or overclocking are the most common reasons for BSOD and other odd behaviours. I always buy RAM specifically aimed for the system/motherboard. If uptime is an issue for your fileserver, then go for a brand server with proper support, or make sure you have spare parts on stock. You might get surprised how short shelf life some products have. If RAID is something you want I definitely recommend brands products like LSI or Intel and the usage of hot spares not the least. If the controller card or the second hard drive breaks it's not fun at all.
