Who we are
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I tend to stick to the C#/VB/ASP.NET forums as a rule ( I wish I knew enough about WPF and LINQ to go there, maybe soon ). The VB forum has the worst questions.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
The VB forum has the worst questions
I never ever go there so I can't comment. However, I find the ASP.NET is by far the worst. I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren, but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics. I don't mind a question that's had some thought put into it, and where the developer is obviously at a loss on some obscure piece of syntax or obtuse behaviour. Here's one I read yesterday: "I have a RichTextBox containing a FlowDocument. Now I want to change the formatting of the currently focused inline when the text is changed. Unfortunately, the Span element does not have a TextChanged-event or something like that. So I have to use the RichTextBox' TextChanged-event. But how to access the selected element (Span, Paragraph, ....)? " It's a good question - there's been some work put in by the OP and they have tried some things before becoming stuck. Contrast this with posts by people who won't even buy a book to help themselves (you know who I'm talking about Sonia). There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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perhaps Hans wants us to just be the bigger person and not respond with something as equally as stupid and immature. (Which we have seen a lot of lately). yes, if someone posts something stupid, then maybe it's time to just say "hey that's not gonna get an answer" but more often than not, a reputable CPian will just reply "omg you cant read. you are so dumb, do your own homework!" or even better "are you sure your[sic] not some indian lady boy!" I think Hans is talking about those kind of rebuttles to poor posts. Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes. just my thoughts. ;P
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jgasm wrote:
Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes.
Good point. Marc
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An interesting - and possibly controversial post, but I would like to see what people think about something else. Which forums have you started to avoid because you don't like the level of question being asked? I used to spend a lot of time on the C# and SQL forums, but I spend a lot less time there now than I used to. I'll stop by, and if I think the poster has tried to help themselves then I'll try to help (or perhaps the question interests me enough to want to get involved). Now, I frequent the WPF and Linq forums more because the level of question is usually better.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
I read the c#/.net/linq/wpf forums, but only tend to contribute answers in the c#/.net ones. I'm not yet fully up to speed with linq/wpf, but I sometimes learn from the answers that are there. I agree they seem to have a lower ratio of bad to good questions.
Simon
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jgasm wrote:
Our negative responses to messages represent us more than the positive ones sometimes.
Good point. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Good point.
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real. :wtf: i think i will go to the pub tonite.
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While I understand you don't like the demeanor of many respondents on CodeProject, I don't think it's because CodeProject's respondents are any different from those in the Google Groups. The questions on places such as http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp/topics?hl=en&lnk=gschg[^] tend to be well-thought-out questions by intelligent questioners who fluently speak English and make an attempt to use good grammar and punctuation. I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
That's a good point! CP's popularity has become it's worst enemy. Part of the problem is that these outsourcing countries (you know which ones ;) ) are spawning more and more inexperienced wanabies.
Work @ Network integrated solutions | Flickr | A practical use of the MVC pattern
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first.
Yup - that was the basis of the article I wrote on posting on the forums. I received many a slapping because of lack of detail - and I learned. Sometimes the slap is necessary.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The VB forum has the worst questions
I never ever go there so I can't comment. However, I find the ASP.NET is by far the worst. I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren, but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics. I don't mind a question that's had some thought put into it, and where the developer is obviously at a loss on some obscure piece of syntax or obtuse behaviour. Here's one I read yesterday: "I have a RichTextBox containing a FlowDocument. Now I want to change the formatting of the currently focused inline when the text is changed. Unfortunately, the Span element does not have a TextChanged-event or something like that. So I have to use the RichTextBox' TextChanged-event. But how to access the selected element (Span, Paragraph, ....)? " It's a good question - there's been some work put in by the OP and they have tried some things before becoming stuck. Contrast this with posts by people who won't even buy a book to help themselves (you know who I'm talking about Sonia). There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren,
It's easily done...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics.
Yes, I have no doubt that some outsourcing firms hire people who can type and tell them to learn coding on CP. You're right, so many people ask ASP.ENT questions that show they don't even know what ASP.NET is, or what it does.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
(you know who I'm talking about Sonia).
*sigh* so true.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Yeah, exactly. The best advice so often is, 'read my article on google and buy a book'. The real difference, in my recollection of usenet, was that the barrier to entry was such that these sort of folks would never have worked out how to post in the first place.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
googleing (how do you spell it?)
My guess would be googling. (Like 'loving', I'd drop the 'e' when adding 'ing')
Simon
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martin_hughes wrote:
If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
Easy. If the question is 'how do I send an email in C#', or 'what is n-tiered development', or 'I am new to programming, how can I write a 3D engine', an article here on CP, or elsewhere, is quicker to find and will go into more detail than a forum reply. If people don't learn how to do some basic research, they are going to be reliant on sites like this for the most basic questions, forever. However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online. They complement each other, CP and google. They do not compete, it's just that some people seem to prefer to ask basic questions and hope for a copy and paste answer so they don't have to learn anything. I give helpful answers all the time and get 1 voted because I didn't provide a copy paste solution. Sometimes, people delete their question, 1 vote me, and ask the same thing again. I've seen people ask the same thing 5 or 6 times over several days, because they don't like the answer that many people give over that time. I may sometimes be ruder than I would like, I'm working on it. But, regardless of if I stoop to the level of sarcasm or not, my replies are always designed to make the person on the other end a better programmer, even if it means not giving them exactly what they want. For example, someone asked how to stop the back button working in a browser, it took three iterations to work out that he has not written proper code to manage if a user is logged in, that was his problem. CP is great for stuff like that - he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the be
Christian Graus wrote:
However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online.
In this case, Google is your friend!
Christian Graus wrote:
he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
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While I understand you don't like the demeanor of many respondents on CodeProject, I don't think it's because CodeProject's respondents are any different from those in the Google Groups. The questions on places such as http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp/topics?hl=en&lnk=gschg[^] tend to be well-thought-out questions by intelligent questioners who fluently speak English and make an attempt to use good grammar and punctuation. I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would get this. Just because the posters here might be less mature, it should not influence our own behavior. If we let it influence our behavior - by flaming the poster - it reflects poorly on the entire CP community.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Good point.
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real. :wtf: i think i will go to the pub tonite.
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jgasm wrote:
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real.
Yes, I imagine it would truly be an honor.
jgasm wrote:
i think i will go to the pub tonite.
Have one for me. :beer:
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
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Christian Graus wrote:
However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online.
In this case, Google is your friend!
Christian Graus wrote:
he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
martin_hughes wrote:
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
Exactly my point, in THAT case, CP was the best solution, not just because the question was specific, but because he didn't know what to ask.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
That's a good point! CP's popularity has become it's worst enemy. Part of the problem is that these outsourcing countries (you know which ones ;) ) are spawning more and more inexperienced wanabies.
Work @ Network integrated solutions | Flickr | A practical use of the MVC pattern
That's because we've exhausted the talent pools overseas which has led to rampant wage inflation amongst the talented. Yet companies still want to produce software for peanuts, so now they dredge the bottom of the barrel for anyone who can spell .Net (and apparently n.tE is close enough).
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
googleing (how do you spell it?)
My guess would be googling. (Like 'loving', I'd drop the 'e' when adding 'ing')
Simon
Yep, just Googled to find out it is Gooogling :) Google (verb)[^]
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
"A quantified comparison of Poster Abuse" ?
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
Simon Stevens wrote:
Maybe this could be my first CP article
I say, "Go for it!"
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Good point.
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real. :wtf: i think i will go to the pub tonite.
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jgasm wrote:
this can't be real.
Good point. ;P Funny man, hahaha. If we ever meet, I'll buy dinner. Marc
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Instead of the voting system that's now in place, we should have a single "voting" link that only the OP can click - something along the lines of "Chosen Solution". At that point, the OP is the only one that can "vote" in the thread, and he can only make a positive statement.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I totally agree, although I have forsaken any hope of changing the voting system. :sigh: Aside from that, we need to stop the negative feedback loop.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
really good idea. but only if you use a female name and a male name in different instance to compare the gender factor ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow