Who we are
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Christian Graus wrote:
The VB forum has the worst questions
I never ever go there so I can't comment. However, I find the ASP.NET is by far the worst. I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren, but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics. I don't mind a question that's had some thought put into it, and where the developer is obviously at a loss on some obscure piece of syntax or obtuse behaviour. Here's one I read yesterday: "I have a RichTextBox containing a FlowDocument. Now I want to change the formatting of the currently focused inline when the text is changed. Unfortunately, the Span element does not have a TextChanged-event or something like that. So I have to use the RichTextBox' TextChanged-event. But how to access the selected element (Span, Paragraph, ....)? " It's a good question - there's been some work put in by the OP and they have tried some things before becoming stuck. Contrast this with posts by people who won't even buy a book to help themselves (you know who I'm talking about Sonia). There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't want to turn this into a rant against some of our outsourced brethren,
It's easily done...
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
but they do seem to be trying to learn how to code on the job - the one that bugs me is when you get a series of questions that are so obviously being posted to teach somebody the basics.
Yes, I have no doubt that some outsourcing firms hire people who can type and tell them to learn coding on CP. You're right, so many people ask ASP.ENT questions that show they don't even know what ASP.NET is, or what it does.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
(you know who I'm talking about Sonia).
*sigh* so true.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's only so much you can do to try and help these people before you have to tell them to go away and either change jobs because they are unsuited to a career in coding or take a frickin course.
Yeah, exactly. The best advice so often is, 'read my article on google and buy a book'. The real difference, in my recollection of usenet, was that the barrier to entry was such that these sort of folks would never have worked out how to post in the first place.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
googleing (how do you spell it?)
My guess would be googling. (Like 'loving', I'd drop the 'e' when adding 'ing')
Simon
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martin_hughes wrote:
If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
Easy. If the question is 'how do I send an email in C#', or 'what is n-tiered development', or 'I am new to programming, how can I write a 3D engine', an article here on CP, or elsewhere, is quicker to find and will go into more detail than a forum reply. If people don't learn how to do some basic research, they are going to be reliant on sites like this for the most basic questions, forever. However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online. They complement each other, CP and google. They do not compete, it's just that some people seem to prefer to ask basic questions and hope for a copy and paste answer so they don't have to learn anything. I give helpful answers all the time and get 1 voted because I didn't provide a copy paste solution. Sometimes, people delete their question, 1 vote me, and ask the same thing again. I've seen people ask the same thing 5 or 6 times over several days, because they don't like the answer that many people give over that time. I may sometimes be ruder than I would like, I'm working on it. But, regardless of if I stoop to the level of sarcasm or not, my replies are always designed to make the person on the other end a better programmer, even if it means not giving them exactly what they want. For example, someone asked how to stop the back button working in a browser, it took three iterations to work out that he has not written proper code to manage if a user is logged in, that was his problem. CP is great for stuff like that - he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the be
Christian Graus wrote:
However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online.
In this case, Google is your friend!
Christian Graus wrote:
he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
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While I understand you don't like the demeanor of many respondents on CodeProject, I don't think it's because CodeProject's respondents are any different from those in the Google Groups. The questions on places such as http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp/topics?hl=en&lnk=gschg[^] tend to be well-thought-out questions by intelligent questioners who fluently speak English and make an attempt to use good grammar and punctuation. I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would get this. Just because the posters here might be less mature, it should not influence our own behavior. If we let it influence our behavior - by flaming the poster - it reflects poorly on the entire CP community.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Good point.
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real. :wtf: i think i will go to the pub tonite.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
jgasm wrote:
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real.
Yes, I imagine it would truly be an honor.
jgasm wrote:
i think i will go to the pub tonite.
Have one for me. :beer:
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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Christian Graus wrote:
However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online.
In this case, Google is your friend!
Christian Graus wrote:
he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
martin_hughes wrote:
So Google was, indeed, useless to him.
Exactly my point, in THAT case, CP was the best solution, not just because the question was specific, but because he didn't know what to ask.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
That's a good point! CP's popularity has become it's worst enemy. Part of the problem is that these outsourcing countries (you know which ones ;) ) are spawning more and more inexperienced wanabies.
Work @ Network integrated solutions | Flickr | A practical use of the MVC pattern
That's because we've exhausted the talent pools overseas which has led to rampant wage inflation amongst the talented. Yet companies still want to produce software for peanuts, so now they dredge the bottom of the barrel for anyone who can spell .Net (and apparently n.tE is close enough).
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
googleing (how do you spell it?)
My guess would be googling. (Like 'loving', I'd drop the 'e' when adding 'ing')
Simon
Yep, just Googled to find out it is Gooogling :) Google (verb)[^]
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
Simon Stevens wrote:
Maybe this could be my first CP article
I say, "Go for it!"
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
"A quantified comparison of Poster Abuse" ?
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Good point.
Marc Clifton said "good point" to me. this can't be real. :wtf: i think i will go to the pub tonite.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
jgasm wrote:
this can't be real.
Good point. ;P Funny man, hahaha. If we ever meet, I'll buy dinner. Marc
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Instead of the voting system that's now in place, we should have a single "voting" link that only the OP can click - something along the lines of "Chosen Solution". At that point, the OP is the only one that can "vote" in the thread, and he can only make a positive statement.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I totally agree, although I have forsaken any hope of changing the voting system. :sigh: Aside from that, we need to stop the negative feedback loop.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
really good idea. but only if you use a female name and a male name in different instance to compare the gender factor ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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Marc Clifton wrote:
just kidding! I have a wonderful girlfriend and don't google for dating websites!
Is this why you think every one of my posts references pr0n? Oh wait - that might just be me.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Oh wait - that might just be me.
I think it might be the combination. I had this friend years ago (sadly we lost contact with each other) and she and I could basically bring the house down just bouncing off each other with jokes, innuendos, etc. I've never met anyone like that since. Marc
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I completely agree. If i see some ridiculous question, like "I need to do make XYZ program, can you give me some code?" I usually don't anyswer, infact there's usually at least 1 answer already about doing their own homework etc. And about google, i am a little guilty of that, though i do provide a link to a helpful page, and i may not be as harsh as others. Still, i think we should all try a bit harder. Like i've said a few times, if ever'body stopped posting and complaining about any problems so much, there would be as much of a problem, or at least there wouldn't seem to be.
My current favourite word is: Bacon!
-SK Genius
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really good idea. but only if you use a female name and a male name in different instance to compare the gender factor ;P
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
And a non-gender specific name as a control. For example, am i a guy or a gal?
My current favourite word is: Bacon!
-SK Genius
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Oh wait - that might just be me.
I think it might be the combination. I had this friend years ago (sadly we lost contact with each other) and she and I could basically bring the house down just bouncing off each other with jokes, innuendos, etc. I've never met anyone like that since. Marc
Am I the only one who sees innuendo in the word innuendo?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I completely agree. If i see some ridiculous question, like "I need to do make XYZ program, can you give me some code?" I usually don't anyswer, infact there's usually at least 1 answer already about doing their own homework etc. And about google, i am a little guilty of that, though i do provide a link to a helpful page, and i may not be as harsh as others. Still, i think we should all try a bit harder. Like i've said a few times, if ever'body stopped posting and complaining about any problems so much, there would be as much of a problem, or at least there wouldn't seem to be.
My current favourite word is: Bacon!
-SK Genius
Yes, but it's not just a problem of perception - we are actually creating a negative feedback loop and making it worse.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
-
The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I used to answer math questions at Math Nerds Free Math Help and Tutoring[^] (I am still listed as a volunteer at the FAQ page). During two years of volunteering I have answered about 1500 questions. The site is designed to help students with their math, including homework but it doesn't mean giving answers and/or whole work done. The idea behind the site is to give hints and references. As it is said in their faq: We do not contribute to the abuse of the internet via doing homework, take home tests, or school related projects. We desire to help our clients by providing guidance, references, and hints, not answers. When someone posts question there, there is a textbox for them to show what they have done and where they got stuck. It is very helpful for volunteer as you know the exact problem they are stuck at and you will be able to give a very specific hint. On the other hand the more general a question is the more difficult it is to answer. The idea of my post is that users should post questions when the need directions on some subject or when they have done some work, got stuck with specific problem, tried to solve the problem and are willing to show the work they have done. In such case it will be easier for others to answer them.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
