Who we are
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I largely agree with your sentiments, I too have been returning to USENET groups. CP seems to have become increasingly populated by know-all bores, or perhaps its the same population becoming increasingly smart-arsed dollards. :zzz:
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I have not read everyone's comments but here is my two cents. When people ask for homework or a simple question, there is always someone there to 'enable' the lazy user. I saw it the other day for Tic Tac Toe. A couple people flamed the user, but someone gave him a link. Often these users are newer members. By the time they registered they could have used Google. While I respect the idea of respecting everyone else, sometimes you need to slap the hand. It seems the "Y me?" generation doesn't want to do anything in terms of work, but wants all the glory. I don't know about other countries, but I've talked to college professors who have moms and dads of students calling trying to get their kids' grades up. I think it is important to let these people know that this behavior is not accepted here, nor is it accepted in the real world. How do these people expect to get jobs? In some cases it sounds like they lied in the interview and now they rely on others to get by and not get fired. I worked hard for my degree, and I have been laid off twice. When I have a problem I like to figure it out. I think that is what makes a true programmer. Many of us won't ask for help until we've exhausted all possibilities on our own. If me flaming someone makes them reconsider their major, I think that is a good thing. We need to weed out the fakers.
New feature! Scroll down to see CP offenders! Current Rant: "It's only Tuesday?" http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
I appreciate your frustration and the satisfaction you get from a well-crafted reply topped off with sarcasm. But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies? I am asking you to consider how your words reflect on all of us here. Your words are not changing the posters - they are changing us and how we behave. We are CP. We are open and helpful to everyone. If this is not who we are, then why do you keep coming back? leckey, I respect you because you are one of the few here who have your own blog where you can say exactly what you think, without having it reflect on CP. I wish this example would be followed by more people.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I think when answering obvious homework questions, the poster needs to demonstrate that some effort was exerted.
i think Hans point was to just ignore the question...not hand out answers.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
Yeah, and my point was if they demonstrate some initiative and effort, then there's no need to ignore the question.
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Shog9 wrote:
i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
Please Shog, your time invested in slapping idiot questions is appreciated (by some), putting a one vote does not tell an idiot they are an idiot, you need to add a rude/sarcastic comment just to get through to them - remember these are the IDIOT question askers. We all got slapped on the way to knowledge, it's how some of us learn. Do not deny the current crop of idiots your vitriol, how else are they going to learn. I think Hans ideas are way too PC.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
We all got slapped on the way to knowledge
Oh yes. I remember in my final year at uni I was asking questions about database access in C++ and I asked many dumb questions. Many were poorly worded, vague or just plain going in the wrong direction. And I got slapped down hard by one guy in particular and if I ever get the chance to meet him I'll thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
In addition to jgasm's suggestion you need a western and indian name comparison too. Also you need well gramatically structured and poorly gramatically structured posts.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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I appreciate your frustration and the satisfaction you get from a well-crafted reply topped off with sarcasm. But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies? I am asking you to consider how your words reflect on all of us here. Your words are not changing the posters - they are changing us and how we behave. We are CP. We are open and helpful to everyone. If this is not who we are, then why do you keep coming back? leckey, I respect you because you are one of the few here who have your own blog where you can say exactly what you think, without having it reflect on CP. I wish this example would be followed by more people.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies?
When I started out, I got kicked up the arse many times on newsgroups. Now I'm a Microsoft MVP and CodeProject MVP. On one occasion I got kicked so hard it upset me for a week. But I worked solidly for that week changing the design of my application and guess what? That software is still running today. If I hadn't got kicked, I wouldn't have changed the design, and the project wouldn't have got any further than being my final year project at uni'. Actually, I still remember the name of the person that kicked me up the arse all those years ago. And if I meet him I will shake him by the hand and thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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Hans Dietrich wrote:
But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies?
When I started out, I got kicked up the arse many times on newsgroups. Now I'm a Microsoft MVP and CodeProject MVP. On one occasion I got kicked so hard it upset me for a week. But I worked solidly for that week changing the design of my application and guess what? That software is still running today. If I hadn't got kicked, I wouldn't have changed the design, and the project wouldn't have got any further than being my final year project at uni'. Actually, I still remember the name of the person that kicked me up the arse all those years ago. And if I meet him I will shake him by the hand and thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
I'd like to read that. Do you think it's still on Usenet?
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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I think the difference is that I don't recall ever seeing homework posted on usenet, or at least, I don't recall seeing an assignment pasted there with no code. I don't bother to respond when my answers get 1 votes, and I rarely respond when people get abusive, if I do, I try to bring things back on track. I do think it's reasonable to tell people they need to try to do their own homework before we will help them and that we won't post the entire assignment solution for them. Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
More accurately, it helps them in the short term, but then gives prospective employers a false idea of their capabilities, they get a job, and we're destined to end up propping them up for the rest of their working lives.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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Christian Graus wrote:
Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
More accurately, it helps them in the short term, but then gives prospective employers a false idea of their capabilities, they get a job, and we're destined to end up propping them up for the rest of their working lives.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
I don't see how they could even pass an exam.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
Googling(how do you spell it?),
Now that is a very good example for the kind of things you can ask Google: - googleing gives 99K hits - googling gives 4M hits I just hope this wasn't a homework question. :laugh: :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles]
I dislike the black-and-white voting system on questions/answers. X|
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Thank goodness, I thought it was just me. I got slapped down, but HARD, when I started asking questions about windows in a C++ group. I was determined to learn, I accepted the beating and learned from it, and 6 months later I had learned enough C++ because of those guys to get my first programming job. I was upset at the time, but in hindsight, it's thankfulness to those guys that motivates me more than anything else to answer questions in places like CP.
Shog9 wrote:
That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
The voting has become simplified, which I've noticed means I'm getting a lot more 1 votes.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Hi Christian, I am one of the very few who object to the voting simplification. For starters, I don't vote on questions; if a poster asks a stupid question, does not provide the necessary information, etc, him seeing a lot of ones will certainly NOT ring a bell. And me seeing a low score on a question does not stop me from reading it; lack of code formatting, lack of symptom and context description may stop me. So voting on a question does not make sense to me. I do vote on replies frequently, indicating an answer is correct and to the point, or plain wrong or irrelevant. This may help the OP to figure out which of all the given answers he can trust, without having to try all of them (it would help if the score were visible without opening the reply). Also the reply votes may or may not stimulate those people who are willing to spend time answering lots of questions. So I am in favor of a voting system on replies, and I want a real scale, not a good/bad choice. A medium quality answer should have a score that reflects that, and choosing between good and bad does not yield that. I have seen people, yourself included, gathering lots of undeserved one votes. We should find ways to reduce that phenomenon, I am convinced the simplified voting here is a step in the wrong direction, and I already told Chris I refuse to use it; if my choice is null/bad/good I do not choose; instead I might add a reply with just a single digit (even if it is 1 or 5). I also suggested long time ago the member page should show the distribution of votes given, possibly keeping some people from voting ones all the time. In summary: I want the 1-to-5 scale back, everywhere, and I want to see the score, a tooltip on the message title would be good enough. Not sure it will happen though... Maybe it is time for some one to write an etiquette article, similar to the articles Pete and yourself did. We then could reply with "ignored etiquette rule 4" and NOT explain what and how, forcing the "offender" to look it up and learn. BTW: I am with Hans when he says there is too much negative content and abuse should be banned. Also I don't care about answering homework questions: if the OP decides to cheat, that is his problem, not mine; as you said, he will fail the exam, not get the job, whatever. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines]
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Brilliant, Hans. This is one of the motivations for the new, simplified voting. I strongly encourage you to vote a dumb question down and ignore it rather than abusing it. I'm also happy to simlpy make such questions disappear it they are truly awful (and we've all seen them) On the other side I do also want good answers applauded and will be looking at ways at rewarding members even more for helpful posts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Brilliant, Hans.
yep.
Chris Maunder wrote:
a dumb question
I don't like the concept, maybe there are no dumb questions, there are just people needing help, some not so good at explaining the situation. Do we NEED to rate questions? NO! they all want answers. I read and try and answer all questions, I am not interested at how good/bad other people judge the question: it has been asked, so it wants an answer. If someone does not understand the question, for whatever reason, and votes it down, maybe, just maybe I do understand the question, and can come up with a reasonable answer. The only use for a question scoring is for keeping those people away who want to answer questions only if they exceed a quality threshold. Then you need two things: - have a real score, based on real votes, not on a good/bad aggregate (which will result in either 1 or 5, I don't expect a balance of good and bad votes for the same question). - show the real score before the question is opened. IMO that is the way to reduce the negative replies Hans rightfully objects to. So I think the current good/bad vote stuff is counterproductive for questions. BTW: if questions are considered "bad enough" to remove them, I don't think they should disappear, maybe they should be moved to a "beginners and bizarre" forum (The only messages that should be allowed to disappear are the spam/abuse messages). The problem then arises who is going to be willing to read and process that forum... I apply a similar reasoning to reply voting: - I want real 1-to-5 votes, resulting in a trustworthy score - and I want that score visible on the thread level, not for 1 message at a time Doing so, the poster (or anyone interested) could immediately spot the highest scoring replies and read these. So my advice is: give us back the real voting, but show the scores next to the subject line (if real-estate does not allow for that, a tooltip may be the next best thing). But permanently visible would be much better. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles]
I dislike the black-and-white voting system on questions/answers. X|
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
You must have a different usenet than me since I find it nearly completely useless, especially getting answers to really hard questions. Like Shog, I can remember full well when massive flame wars would erupt on the non-moderated groups. Even today, I've read far more nasty put downs on the few groups I frequent than I have on here. Worse are the spam messages that fill up some groups.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member
I seriously doubt you want us all to really do that. Frankly, I think this whole "professional, civil manner" is bullshit. It's code for keep your damn mouth shut. No, I like working in environment LIKE my family where if you act like an idiot, they call you out. I like working in environment where you don't have to couch all your words in politically correct nonsense out of fear you're going to hurt someone's feelings. I actually find "google it" far more helpful that the classic "why are you using STL" type of answer. So, I respectfully mostly disagree with you and hope you find a civilized programmer's website that fits your desires.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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And that's why I point many users to your article :)
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
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Hi Christian, I am one of the very few who object to the voting simplification. For starters, I don't vote on questions; if a poster asks a stupid question, does not provide the necessary information, etc, him seeing a lot of ones will certainly NOT ring a bell. And me seeing a low score on a question does not stop me from reading it; lack of code formatting, lack of symptom and context description may stop me. So voting on a question does not make sense to me. I do vote on replies frequently, indicating an answer is correct and to the point, or plain wrong or irrelevant. This may help the OP to figure out which of all the given answers he can trust, without having to try all of them (it would help if the score were visible without opening the reply). Also the reply votes may or may not stimulate those people who are willing to spend time answering lots of questions. So I am in favor of a voting system on replies, and I want a real scale, not a good/bad choice. A medium quality answer should have a score that reflects that, and choosing between good and bad does not yield that. I have seen people, yourself included, gathering lots of undeserved one votes. We should find ways to reduce that phenomenon, I am convinced the simplified voting here is a step in the wrong direction, and I already told Chris I refuse to use it; if my choice is null/bad/good I do not choose; instead I might add a reply with just a single digit (even if it is 1 or 5). I also suggested long time ago the member page should show the distribution of votes given, possibly keeping some people from voting ones all the time. In summary: I want the 1-to-5 scale back, everywhere, and I want to see the score, a tooltip on the message title would be good enough. Not sure it will happen though... Maybe it is time for some one to write an etiquette article, similar to the articles Pete and yourself did. We then could reply with "ignored etiquette rule 4" and NOT explain what and how, forcing the "offender" to look it up and learn. BTW: I am with Hans when he says there is too much negative content and abuse should be banned. Also I don't care about answering homework questions: if the OP decides to cheat, that is his problem, not mine; as you said, he will fail the exam, not get the job, whatever. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines]
Luc Pattyn wrote:
I am one of the very few who object to the voting simplification.
I don't like it, because it seems to make people feel obliged to vote, where before it was an extreme measure, now it happens more, and seems more arbitrary. What makes a question 'bad' ? I know a homework question is bad, but some people are getting voted 'bad' just for asking a basic question, even when it seems they have tried to do it themselves and tried to search for help.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Am I the only one who sees innuendo in the word innuendo?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Yes, it's just you :-) It's a perfectly good Italian suppository.
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I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend". It's pathetic behaviour, wins no friends and reflects badly on the poster. If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?