Who we are
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
Please Shog, your time invested in slapping idiot questions is appreciated (by some), putting a one vote does not tell an idiot they are an idiot, you need to add a rude/sarcastic comment just to get through to them - remember these are the IDIOT question askers. We all got slapped on the way to knowledge, it's how some of us learn. Do not deny the current crop of idiots your vitriol, how else are they going to learn. I think Hans ideas are way too PC.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would get this. Just because the posters here might be less mature, it should not influence our own behavior. If we let it influence our behavior - by flaming the poster - it reflects poorly on the entire CP community.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Depends on what your CP goals are, mine are to improve and help ultimately I'd like to think some of the idiots actually learn something and become skilled, I know I did. If an someone asks an idiot question the most valid response should be to point out the idiocy of the question. Some do it politely, some of us less so and some are downright harsh. Ignoring or 1 voting the question is the WRONG response. The idiot learns nothing. Please be kind to idiots, slap them.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first.
Very true! Where do you think the fine old art of flame wars actually were developed? Actually, it was brought into high art on the old BBSes, on the old FIDO and RIME echomail nets, but certainly, USENET was a center for developing the art form to its heights. Perhaps it is a more polite, forgiving world today, but if a lurker was stupid enough to step out of the shadows without proper netiquette and start posting outside the requirements stated in the newsgroup's FAQ he or she would be thoroughly spanked and sent home to Mommy. What happens here at CP is actually fairly gentle compared to some towering flames I've seen in the past. That said, I do think we've perhaps gotten a little out of control around here. Once can clearly and quite painfully provide a luser attitude readjustment tool (aka LART, sometimes represented by a clue-X-4, a bat, a length of pipe or a sledgehammer) to the head of an idiot without resorting to unnecessary insults that are cast too broadly. If a flame is necessary, let's try for some precision, people! And let's reserve the weaponry for those who've proven they can't be redirected productively, first. Then it's both more effective when used and less likely to provide a poor general impression. Right now, there's so much flaming going on around here that who notices a little more heat? < insert rant here > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While I'm at it, I will point out a couple of nits to pick that relate to a post or two in this thread: 1) The "Internet" is NOT equivalent to the "World Wide Web", or just the "Web" or "WWW" if you want to shorten it. The Internet is a bunch of interconnected computer networks that are connected by various means (fiber, copper, wireless, etc.) The World Wide Web and USENET (among others) are both services that run on the Internet. I suppose, in a way, you could think of the Internet as the container for all the other services. Please do not equate them. 2) Oh, and the Web didn't start with Netscape or even Mosaic. That's just when it became appealing to the masses. There was a WWW before graphics were introduced. Honest! < /rant >
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
It's no more the world we grew up in. When I was diving into computers, contact with others was scarce (for me, only for the first years luckily). Information, documentation especially good one, was hard to get by. I guess all my assembler knowledge was founded by chowing down a Intel 286 reference - since it was the only "interesting" computer thing the local library had. Now, informaiton is at your fingertips. Too much information perhaps, but that's still more of a bonus than a problem for me. I can not respect a poster who failed to type the keywords of his question into google, or extract the right results there. The best thing I can do is ignroe them. I expect a certain amount of courtesy when asking for help - which does involve an attempt at spelling. (Probably I spellt the previous sentence wrong). But yeah, other than that, you are right.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I think asking people to use Google is perfectly fine. I think rude comments - from both the people asking questions and answering them - is unacceptable. Copy-pasting the teacher's question and asking somebody to do it for them, without showing any effort into solving the problem themselves, is also unacceptable. Then there is the fact that English is not the native language of a lot of posters, for which they get pilloried (from even the gurus, though I won't name anybody here) - this, at times, infuriates me. The anti-Indian bigotry has at times left me contemplating leaving, but I don't think I ever will. ;) Overall, you have my respect. You are my hero. :cool:
Cheers, Vikram.
The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray.
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Well, asking them to google is fine but of course not by pulling their colors. In other words, We can direct him to http://www.google.com[^] but not Here[^]. Well said mate.I agree with you.:beer:
OK,. what country just started work for the day ? The ASP.NET forum is flooded with retarded questions. -Christian Graus Best wishes to Rexx[^]
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martin_hughes wrote:
If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
Easy. If the question is 'how do I send an email in C#', or 'what is n-tiered development', or 'I am new to programming, how can I write a 3D engine', an article here on CP, or elsewhere, is quicker to find and will go into more detail than a forum reply. If people don't learn how to do some basic research, they are going to be reliant on sites like this for the most basic questions, forever. However, if you're using WPF and you find that resizing an image with the built in tools, distorts it ( this is true ), or you have followed a tutorial and at the end, you have a bunch of code but you can't get, say, a database record to store changes when you edit a grid view, then, it's far better to ask another developer if they can see the problem with YOUR code, that's where CP works a lot better than trying to find articles online. They complement each other, CP and google. They do not compete, it's just that some people seem to prefer to ask basic questions and hope for a copy and paste answer so they don't have to learn anything. I give helpful answers all the time and get 1 voted because I didn't provide a copy paste solution. Sometimes, people delete their question, 1 vote me, and ask the same thing again. I've seen people ask the same thing 5 or 6 times over several days, because they don't like the answer that many people give over that time. I may sometimes be ruder than I would like, I'm working on it. But, regardless of if I stoop to the level of sarcasm or not, my replies are always designed to make the person on the other end a better programmer, even if it means not giving them exactly what they want. For example, someone asked how to stop the back button working in a browser, it took three iterations to work out that he has not written proper code to manage if a user is logged in, that was his problem. CP is great for stuff like that - he didn't even know enough to ask the right question at first.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the be
If the OP knew the right question he/she would probably know the right answer. On the voting - the only things that should be voted on are Jokes and Rants.
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I largely agree with your sentiments, I too have been returning to USENET groups. CP seems to have become increasingly populated by know-all bores, or perhaps its the same population becoming increasingly smart-arsed dollards. :zzz:
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I have not read everyone's comments but here is my two cents. When people ask for homework or a simple question, there is always someone there to 'enable' the lazy user. I saw it the other day for Tic Tac Toe. A couple people flamed the user, but someone gave him a link. Often these users are newer members. By the time they registered they could have used Google. While I respect the idea of respecting everyone else, sometimes you need to slap the hand. It seems the "Y me?" generation doesn't want to do anything in terms of work, but wants all the glory. I don't know about other countries, but I've talked to college professors who have moms and dads of students calling trying to get their kids' grades up. I think it is important to let these people know that this behavior is not accepted here, nor is it accepted in the real world. How do these people expect to get jobs? In some cases it sounds like they lied in the interview and now they rely on others to get by and not get fired. I worked hard for my degree, and I have been laid off twice. When I have a problem I like to figure it out. I think that is what makes a true programmer. Many of us won't ask for help until we've exhausted all possibilities on our own. If me flaming someone makes them reconsider their major, I think that is a good thing. We need to weed out the fakers.
New feature! Scroll down to see CP offenders! Current Rant: "It's only Tuesday?" http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
I appreciate your frustration and the satisfaction you get from a well-crafted reply topped off with sarcasm. But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies? I am asking you to consider how your words reflect on all of us here. Your words are not changing the posters - they are changing us and how we behave. We are CP. We are open and helpful to everyone. If this is not who we are, then why do you keep coming back? leckey, I respect you because you are one of the few here who have your own blog where you can say exactly what you think, without having it reflect on CP. I wish this example would be followed by more people.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I think when answering obvious homework questions, the poster needs to demonstrate that some effort was exerted.
i think Hans point was to just ignore the question...not hand out answers.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
Yeah, and my point was if they demonstrate some initiative and effort, then there's no need to ignore the question.
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Shog9 wrote:
i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
Please Shog, your time invested in slapping idiot questions is appreciated (by some), putting a one vote does not tell an idiot they are an idiot, you need to add a rude/sarcastic comment just to get through to them - remember these are the IDIOT question askers. We all got slapped on the way to knowledge, it's how some of us learn. Do not deny the current crop of idiots your vitriol, how else are they going to learn. I think Hans ideas are way too PC.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
We all got slapped on the way to knowledge
Oh yes. I remember in my final year at uni I was asking questions about database access in C++ and I asked many dumb questions. Many were poorly worded, vague or just plain going in the wrong direction. And I got slapped down hard by one guy in particular and if I ever get the chance to meet him I'll thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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Lets test this scientifically. Register a new test user on CP and Usenet, and post the same set of poorly worded and homework style questions on both, some in incorrect forums and compare the results. Maybe this could be my first CP article :)
Simon
In addition to jgasm's suggestion you need a western and indian name comparison too. Also you need well gramatically structured and poorly gramatically structured posts.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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I appreciate your frustration and the satisfaction you get from a well-crafted reply topped off with sarcasm. But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies? I am asking you to consider how your words reflect on all of us here. Your words are not changing the posters - they are changing us and how we behave. We are CP. We are open and helpful to everyone. If this is not who we are, then why do you keep coming back? leckey, I respect you because you are one of the few here who have your own blog where you can say exactly what you think, without having it reflect on CP. I wish this example would be followed by more people.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies?
When I started out, I got kicked up the arse many times on newsgroups. Now I'm a Microsoft MVP and CodeProject MVP. On one occasion I got kicked so hard it upset me for a week. But I worked solidly for that week changing the design of my application and guess what? That software is still running today. If I hadn't got kicked, I wouldn't have changed the design, and the project wouldn't have got any further than being my final year project at uni'. Actually, I still remember the name of the person that kicked me up the arse all those years ago. And if I meet him I will shake him by the hand and thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
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Hans Dietrich wrote:
But honestly leckey, how many people have you changed by your replies?
When I started out, I got kicked up the arse many times on newsgroups. Now I'm a Microsoft MVP and CodeProject MVP. On one occasion I got kicked so hard it upset me for a week. But I worked solidly for that week changing the design of my application and guess what? That software is still running today. If I hadn't got kicked, I wouldn't have changed the design, and the project wouldn't have got any further than being my final year project at uni'. Actually, I still remember the name of the person that kicked me up the arse all those years ago. And if I meet him I will shake him by the hand and thank him.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland Recent blog posts: * Introduction to LINQ to XML (Part 1) - (Part 2) My website | Blog
I'd like to read that. Do you think it's still on Usenet?
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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I think the difference is that I don't recall ever seeing homework posted on usenet, or at least, I don't recall seeing an assignment pasted there with no code. I don't bother to respond when my answers get 1 votes, and I rarely respond when people get abusive, if I do, I try to bring things back on track. I do think it's reasonable to tell people they need to try to do their own homework before we will help them and that we won't post the entire assignment solution for them. Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
More accurately, it helps them in the short term, but then gives prospective employers a false idea of their capabilities, they get a job, and we're destined to end up propping them up for the rest of their working lives.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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Christian Graus wrote:
Mainly because if we don't say that, someone WILL do it, and that doesn't help the OP at all.
More accurately, it helps them in the short term, but then gives prospective employers a false idea of their capabilities, they get a job, and we're destined to end up propping them up for the rest of their working lives.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
I don't see how they could even pass an exam.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I believe we should not do other people's homework. As Edward Morgan Forster[^] has said Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon. As for googleing Googling(how do you spell it?), most of the people are just lazy to type words from their question title in Google and study the links Google gives them. Apart from that, knowing how to find help using Google is a skill and I think it is quite a useful and valuable skill. No one is going to do your job so you should know how to find help yourself, without others help, without depending on others.
Giorgi Dalakishvili #region signature my articles #endregion
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:19 PM
Giorgi Dalakishvili wrote:
Googling(how do you spell it?),
Now that is a very good example for the kind of things you can ask Google: - googleing gives 99K hits - googling gives 4M hits I just hope this wasn't a homework question. :laugh: :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles]
I dislike the black-and-white voting system on questions/answers. X|
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Thank goodness, I thought it was just me. I got slapped down, but HARD, when I started asking questions about windows in a C++ group. I was determined to learn, I accepted the beating and learned from it, and 6 months later I had learned enough C++ because of those guys to get my first programming job. I was upset at the time, but in hindsight, it's thankfulness to those guys that motivates me more than anything else to answer questions in places like CP.
Shog9 wrote:
That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
The voting has become simplified, which I've noticed means I'm getting a lot more 1 votes.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Hi Christian, I am one of the very few who object to the voting simplification. For starters, I don't vote on questions; if a poster asks a stupid question, does not provide the necessary information, etc, him seeing a lot of ones will certainly NOT ring a bell. And me seeing a low score on a question does not stop me from reading it; lack of code formatting, lack of symptom and context description may stop me. So voting on a question does not make sense to me. I do vote on replies frequently, indicating an answer is correct and to the point, or plain wrong or irrelevant. This may help the OP to figure out which of all the given answers he can trust, without having to try all of them (it would help if the score were visible without opening the reply). Also the reply votes may or may not stimulate those people who are willing to spend time answering lots of questions. So I am in favor of a voting system on replies, and I want a real scale, not a good/bad choice. A medium quality answer should have a score that reflects that, and choosing between good and bad does not yield that. I have seen people, yourself included, gathering lots of undeserved one votes. We should find ways to reduce that phenomenon, I am convinced the simplified voting here is a step in the wrong direction, and I already told Chris I refuse to use it; if my choice is null/bad/good I do not choose; instead I might add a reply with just a single digit (even if it is 1 or 5). I also suggested long time ago the member page should show the distribution of votes given, possibly keeping some people from voting ones all the time. In summary: I want the 1-to-5 scale back, everywhere, and I want to see the score, a tooltip on the message title would be good enough. Not sure it will happen though... Maybe it is time for some one to write an etiquette article, similar to the articles Pete and yourself did. We then could reply with "ignored etiquette rule 4" and NOT explain what and how, forcing the "offender" to look it up and learn. BTW: I am with Hans when he says there is too much negative content and abuse should be banned. Also I don't care about answering homework questions: if the OP decides to cheat, that is his problem, not mine; as you said, he will fail the exam, not get the job, whatever. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines]
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Brilliant, Hans. This is one of the motivations for the new, simplified voting. I strongly encourage you to vote a dumb question down and ignore it rather than abusing it. I'm also happy to simlpy make such questions disappear it they are truly awful (and we've all seen them) On the other side I do also want good answers applauded and will be looking at ways at rewarding members even more for helpful posts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Brilliant, Hans.
yep.
Chris Maunder wrote:
a dumb question
I don't like the concept, maybe there are no dumb questions, there are just people needing help, some not so good at explaining the situation. Do we NEED to rate questions? NO! they all want answers. I read and try and answer all questions, I am not interested at how good/bad other people judge the question: it has been asked, so it wants an answer. If someone does not understand the question, for whatever reason, and votes it down, maybe, just maybe I do understand the question, and can come up with a reasonable answer. The only use for a question scoring is for keeping those people away who want to answer questions only if they exceed a quality threshold. Then you need two things: - have a real score, based on real votes, not on a good/bad aggregate (which will result in either 1 or 5, I don't expect a balance of good and bad votes for the same question). - show the real score before the question is opened. IMO that is the way to reduce the negative replies Hans rightfully objects to. So I think the current good/bad vote stuff is counterproductive for questions. BTW: if questions are considered "bad enough" to remove them, I don't think they should disappear, maybe they should be moved to a "beginners and bizarre" forum (The only messages that should be allowed to disappear are the spam/abuse messages). The problem then arises who is going to be willing to read and process that forum... I apply a similar reasoning to reply voting: - I want real 1-to-5 votes, resulting in a trustworthy score - and I want that score visible on the thread level, not for 1 message at a time Doing so, the poster (or anyone interested) could immediately spot the highest scoring replies and read these. So my advice is: give us back the real voting, but show the scores next to the subject line (if real-estate does not allow for that, a tooltip may be the next best thing). But permanently visible would be much better. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles]
I dislike the black-and-white voting system on questions/answers. X|
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
You must have a different usenet than me since I find it nearly completely useless, especially getting answers to really hard questions. Like Shog, I can remember full well when massive flame wars would erupt on the non-moderated groups. Even today, I've read far more nasty put downs on the few groups I frequent than I have on here. Worse are the spam messages that fill up some groups.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member
I seriously doubt you want us all to really do that. Frankly, I think this whole "professional, civil manner" is bullshit. It's code for keep your damn mouth shut. No, I like working in environment LIKE my family where if you act like an idiot, they call you out. I like working in environment where you don't have to couch all your words in politically correct nonsense out of fear you're going to hurt someone's feelings. I actually find "google it" far more helpful that the classic "why are you using STL" type of answer. So, I respectfully mostly disagree with you and hope you find a civilized programmer's website that fits your desires.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke