Funny PSU Voltages
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Yes, I'll do that later tonight, thanks. Another suspect has been introduced: the surge protector. It powers the printer, wide-screen LCD, and PC, and seems rather small for such current. It could be this thing has become sub-spec after a spike or overload, and tends to drop voltage under high load. Is this probable?
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
Get a decent UPS, and put the PC and the monitor on the battery protected outlets, and the printer on a non-battery protected outlet. BTW, the surge protector won't fail to deliver the appropriate current, so your theory is kind toast. What's more probably is that your PSU is at fault (I spend a minimum of $75 on my PSUs, and buy name-brand units), however, getting voltage readings from software (which gets its numbers from the BIOS) is not what I would call accurate. To get truly accurate numbers, you have to have a physical piece of hardware attached to your PSU. You can get these in the form of a panel that fits in a 5-1/4 inch drive bay opening. If you get a UPS, and pay attention to your system, it will serve you well for many years without so much as a hiccup. FWIW, I keep a couple of spare PSUs on hand in case something catastrophic happens (and ALL of my computer equipment at home is connected to one of six UPSs). For voltage readouts, I use a DigitalDoc panel. It also monitors up to eight temperatures.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Get a decent UPS, and put the PC and the monitor on the battery protected outlets, and the printer on a non-battery protected outlet. BTW, the surge protector won't fail to deliver the appropriate current, so your theory is kind toast. What's more probably is that your PSU is at fault (I spend a minimum of $75 on my PSUs, and buy name-brand units), however, getting voltage readings from software (which gets its numbers from the BIOS) is not what I would call accurate. To get truly accurate numbers, you have to have a physical piece of hardware attached to your PSU. You can get these in the form of a panel that fits in a 5-1/4 inch drive bay opening. If you get a UPS, and pay attention to your system, it will serve you well for many years without so much as a hiccup. FWIW, I keep a couple of spare PSUs on hand in case something catastrophic happens (and ALL of my computer equipment at home is connected to one of six UPSs). For voltage readouts, I use a DigitalDoc panel. It also monitors up to eight temperatures.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Get a decent UPS, and put the PC and the monitor on the battery protected outlets, and the printer on a non-battery protected outlet. BTW, the surge protector won't fail to deliver the appropriate current, so your theory is kind toast.
If it were my 'server', I would, but this is a back room machine for a three man furniture business, so the expenditure on a UPS for a PC that is generally only used as an ADSL 'gateway' would be hard for me to motivate. It is used interactively only two to three hours a day. My theory on the surge protector is not that it can't deliver the require current, but that it might me faulty, and the faulty behaviour may include spuriously cutting the supply in high temperature or current conditions, the former maybe caused by the latter. I sincerely hope that when I return home, it has shut down again, running on its original PSU, but at 10am this morning, it had been running on that PSU for 12 hours without a problem. The only difference between my house and the owner's house, is that he has his ADSL line and a small network switch connected to the machine, and the surge protector, and at his house two hours is impressive up time.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Get a decent UPS, and put the PC and the monitor on the battery protected outlets, and the printer on a non-battery protected outlet. BTW, the surge protector won't fail to deliver the appropriate current, so your theory is kind toast.
If it were my 'server', I would, but this is a back room machine for a three man furniture business, so the expenditure on a UPS for a PC that is generally only used as an ADSL 'gateway' would be hard for me to motivate. It is used interactively only two to three hours a day. My theory on the surge protector is not that it can't deliver the require current, but that it might me faulty, and the faulty behaviour may include spuriously cutting the supply in high temperature or current conditions, the former maybe caused by the latter. I sincerely hope that when I return home, it has shut down again, running on its original PSU, but at 10am this morning, it had been running on that PSU for 12 hours without a problem. The only difference between my house and the owner's house, is that he has his ADSL line and a small network switch connected to the machine, and the surge protector, and at his house two hours is impressive up time.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
Brady Kelly wrote:
If it were my 'server', I would, but this is a back room machine for a three man furniture business, so the expenditure on a UPS for a PC that is generally only used as an ADSL 'gateway' would be hard for me to motivate. It is used interactively only two to three hours a day.
The UPS is there to protect the hardware. Spend $120 on a decent UPS, or spend $500/more on a new box (not to mention the potential loss of data). My DSL modem, firewall appliance and wireless access point are all on the same UPS. That's a total of about $500 in equipment, and I feel a lot better knowing I don't have to worry about it. The UPS allows me to power them down normally in the event of a power failure.
Brady Kelly wrote:
My theory on the surge protector is not that it can't deliver the require current, but that it might me faulty, and the faulty behaviour may include spuriously cutting the supply in high temperature or current conditions, the former maybe caused by the latter.
I've been doing hardware for over 20 years, and I have never seen a surge protector fail to provide the required current. Like I said, I would suspect the PSU before the surge protector.
Brady Kelly wrote:
and at his house two hours is impressive up time.
If his power is that flaky, the first thing I would do is recommend a "whole-house" surge protector. I have one - I think it cost $130 8 years ago. The next thing I'd do is get him one of those monster UPSs that provides significant backup time (1100va minimum). At least that way, the UPS could shut off the system in a controller manner in the event of a prolonged power outage. FWIW, I haven't lost a single piece of hardware due to power surge/failure.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Brady Kelly wrote:
If it were my 'server', I would, but this is a back room machine for a three man furniture business, so the expenditure on a UPS for a PC that is generally only used as an ADSL 'gateway' would be hard for me to motivate. It is used interactively only two to three hours a day.
The UPS is there to protect the hardware. Spend $120 on a decent UPS, or spend $500/more on a new box (not to mention the potential loss of data). My DSL modem, firewall appliance and wireless access point are all on the same UPS. That's a total of about $500 in equipment, and I feel a lot better knowing I don't have to worry about it. The UPS allows me to power them down normally in the event of a power failure.
Brady Kelly wrote:
My theory on the surge protector is not that it can't deliver the require current, but that it might me faulty, and the faulty behaviour may include spuriously cutting the supply in high temperature or current conditions, the former maybe caused by the latter.
I've been doing hardware for over 20 years, and I have never seen a surge protector fail to provide the required current. Like I said, I would suspect the PSU before the surge protector.
Brady Kelly wrote:
and at his house two hours is impressive up time.
If his power is that flaky, the first thing I would do is recommend a "whole-house" surge protector. I have one - I think it cost $130 8 years ago. The next thing I'd do is get him one of those monster UPSs that provides significant backup time (1100va minimum). At least that way, the UPS could shut off the system in a controller manner in the event of a prolonged power outage. FWIW, I haven't lost a single piece of hardware due to power surge/failure.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I actually think he should get a new box and a UPS, but then he might be short on cash to pay me. :laugh: Despite our load shedding problems and all, his power isn;t flaky. The impressive two hours up time is only for that one box, everything else is up all day without interruption. The load shedding hasn't been bad lately. Maybe it was just a bad mobo - PSU connection that my swapping corrected. There's optimism for you.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
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In my saga of the PC that keeps shutting down, I have run it for twelve hours each on its own power supply, and on a substitute. Unfortunately I didn't get the voltages logged for the substitute, but on the original PSU, the values on the -ve rails are suspiciously low. Is there some reason for this, such as those supplies going into idle or something when not used? I have aggregated the voltages logged over about an hour this morning as follows:
+5V +12V -12V -5V +5V Vbat
Min 1.96 11.78 -9.15 -4.8 4.81 4.08
Max 4.19 11.9 -2.24 0.32 4.81 4.08
Mode 3.79 11.84 -6.11 -0.23 4.81 4.08Note the -12V and -5V values. I'm also curious as to what the constant +5V value is. These were logged by SpeedFan[^], and I'll physically measure the actual voltages tonight to confirm the accuracy of the logged data.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
I run into an unusual problem in Thailand (not usually a problem in the US or EU) that does damage to otherwise protected equipment. In the village we not only get frequent brown/black outs but the frequency can also fluctuate, AAAAAHHHHHH! Apparently the surge protectors and UPS systems I have don't filter this and it causes components to overheat. I don't know if you experience frequency fluctuation in SA but it is something else to look into.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I run into an unusual problem in Thailand (not usually a problem in the US or EU) that does damage to otherwise protected equipment. In the village we not only get frequent brown/black outs but the frequency can also fluctuate, AAAAAHHHHHH! Apparently the surge protectors and UPS systems I have don't filter this and it causes components to overheat. I don't know if you experience frequency fluctuation in SA but it is something else to look into.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesYou would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails. They are more expensive and, as a result, more difficult to buy.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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I actually think he should get a new box and a UPS, but then he might be short on cash to pay me. :laugh: Despite our load shedding problems and all, his power isn;t flaky. The impressive two hours up time is only for that one box, everything else is up all day without interruption. The load shedding hasn't been bad lately. Maybe it was just a bad mobo - PSU connection that my swapping corrected. There's optimism for you.
Semicolons: The number one seller of ostomy bags world wide. - dan neely
I second everything JSOP has written in this thread. And I also still believe it's a problem with flaky power, PSUs are among the most sensitive equipment you have. Can't you borrow him your extra PSU just to rule out that it isn't the problem? And yes, it might be a bad connection. I've had that problem too.
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You would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails. They are more expensive and, as a result, more difficult to buy.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
You would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails.
It is not only when the mains fail; frequency fluctuation can happen at any time. Do you know where I can find a reasonably priced solution for this problem? Alternatively, if a store bought unit would be very expensive, where I can get schematic diagrams for a solution? I am tried of burning out mother boards. They seem to go first. It is not an every week occurrence but it happens way too often for my liking. :sigh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I second everything JSOP has written in this thread. And I also still believe it's a problem with flaky power, PSUs are among the most sensitive equipment you have. Can't you borrow him your extra PSU just to rule out that it isn't the problem? And yes, it might be a bad connection. I've had that problem too.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
JSOP
Now that is notoriety! Not many people get their own acronym. :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Trollslayer wrote:
You would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails.
It is not only when the mains fail; frequency fluctuation can happen at any time. Do you know where I can find a reasonably priced solution for this problem? Alternatively, if a store bought unit would be very expensive, where I can get schematic diagrams for a solution? I am tried of burning out mother boards. They seem to go first. It is not an every week occurrence but it happens way too often for my liking. :sigh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesNo, the full converstion types do not switch in the battery backed up converter, they always convert the whole power down to DC, use that to charge the battery and aslo drive a DC to AC converter which will always be at the correct voltage and frequency. We have one of these at work for 110V (and a spare), hate to think how much they cost.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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No, the full converstion types do not switch in the battery backed up converter, they always convert the whole power down to DC, use that to charge the battery and aslo drive a DC to AC converter which will always be at the correct voltage and frequency. We have one of these at work for 110V (and a spare), hate to think how much they cost.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
We have one of these at work for 110V (and a spare), hate to think how much they cost.
No doubt out of my budget. Thanks for the information. It gives me something to think about.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
No, the full converstion types do not switch in the battery backed up converter, they always convert the whole power down to DC, use that to charge the battery and aslo drive a DC to AC converter which will always be at the correct voltage and frequency. We have one of these at work for 110V (and a spare), hate to think how much they cost.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Now you’ve got me thinking, which is sometimes dangerous. I usually stay out of UPS circuitry, due to a fear of electrocution (I sometimes do read the warnings on boxes before I open them), but do you think I can alter the circuitry to always be feeding 220V instead of just when the mains fail? Seems that all I would need to do is bypass the switching circuitry so the unit is always supplying AC? That way I would never be feeding directly from the main but would always be getting conditioned current from the UPS unit which was converted to DC, stored in the battery and converted back to 220v 50Hz AC current. Since the main would be constantly charging the battery it would never run down except in the event of a real power outage. I suppose I should try to kick in the signaling mechanism which would shut down the computer system in an orderly fashion should the mains fail. That would complicate things a bit but it would be worth it if I could get over the frequency fluctuation which burns out mother boards more frequently that normal. They seem to be the first to fail and I don’t have the diagnostic equipment to fix them. What do you think about trying something like that?
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Now you’ve got me thinking, which is sometimes dangerous. I usually stay out of UPS circuitry, due to a fear of electrocution (I sometimes do read the warnings on boxes before I open them), but do you think I can alter the circuitry to always be feeding 220V instead of just when the mains fail? Seems that all I would need to do is bypass the switching circuitry so the unit is always supplying AC? That way I would never be feeding directly from the main but would always be getting conditioned current from the UPS unit which was converted to DC, stored in the battery and converted back to 220v 50Hz AC current. Since the main would be constantly charging the battery it would never run down except in the event of a real power outage. I suppose I should try to kick in the signaling mechanism which would shut down the computer system in an orderly fashion should the mains fail. That would complicate things a bit but it would be worth it if I could get over the frequency fluctuation which burns out mother boards more frequently that normal. They seem to be the first to fail and I don’t have the diagnostic equipment to fix them. What do you think about trying something like that?
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Seems that all I would need to do is bypass the switching circuitry so the unit is always supplying AC?
Nope, that doesn't work, alternatively it might be dangerous. If the UPS isn't made as a full double converting online UPS from the beginning, the charging converter is supplying enough power to charge the battery only, over a longer time, typically 70% charge in 6 hours. Otherwise you're on the right track. If you're having problems with fluctuations of different kind I think you would save money on buying a proper UPS. My personal recommendation would be Eaton Powerware[^]. We're having a model 9120 for our servers and switches with an extra battery to keep the uptime above one hour. This UPS (without battery) costs about $1500 in Sweden. Probably cheaper in the US. The extra battery around $1000. The reason for my choice is that Powerware comes with a program where you can control the orderly shutdown of all the computers you connect to the same UPS (APC charges extra for that). Don't forget to connect your Switches to the UPS!
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Trollslayer wrote:
You would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails.
It is not only when the mains fail; frequency fluctuation can happen at any time. Do you know where I can find a reasonably priced solution for this problem? Alternatively, if a store bought unit would be very expensive, where I can get schematic diagrams for a solution? I am tried of burning out mother boards. They seem to go first. It is not an every week occurrence but it happens way too often for my liking. :sigh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesWell, you'll need an UPS with an auto-transformer. That means: line-interactive, double-conversion or online UPS.
Cheers, Sebastian -- "If it was two men, the non-driver would have challenged the driver to simply crash through the gates. The macho image thing, you know." - Marc Clifton
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Trollslayer wrote:
You would need to use a full switching system that converts down to DC then back up to AC instead of just kicking in the batteries when the mains fails.
It is not only when the mains fail; frequency fluctuation can happen at any time. Do you know where I can find a reasonably priced solution for this problem? Alternatively, if a store bought unit would be very expensive, where I can get schematic diagrams for a solution? I am tried of burning out mother boards. They seem to go first. It is not an every week occurrence but it happens way too often for my liking. :sigh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesYou need a double conversion UPS. Everything else runs your system on main power except when it detects a problem. As others have mentioned they're not cheap, but no more so than one or two fried PCs. APC wants $300-400 for a desktop size unit. IIRC Belkin has one for $200ish. Unfortunately they don't make it easy to see what models have the feature. APC calls it topology, so search every page about one model in each family to find one that does it (within a family APCs're all the same topology).
You know, every time I tried to win a bar-bet about being able to count to 1000 using my fingers I always got punched out when I reached 4.... -- El Corazon
