What do YOU think of MSDN?
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MSDN used to be a valuable tool. It is a mere shadow of it's former self, and I never consider using it prior to doing an exhaustive search elsewhere on the web first. I bought a subscription to MSDN back when it was first made available (early 90's), and watched it turn to shit over the course of it's now miserable life. In the beginning, their knowledge base was on CD and was actually helpful. Over time, they've lost or deleted most of the original content, so if you don't have the original CDs, you're simply hosed. Of course, this is only a concern if you're a C++ programmer, but how long until it's also true for .Net programmers? Wanna complain? Well, first you have to get a damn Live account. Good luck with that. Every time I try to register, the web site fails in some spectacular way, and I can't get an account. Useless. It's modern incarnation is nothing but rubbish.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Ok, I believe you. But none of it changes that MSDN is useful. Chris just replied to you saying Google found a result ...on MSDN of all things. You said that's exactly what you're talking about. Given Chris' example, if MSDN wasn't there, then Google wouldn't work. MSDN was useful in Chris' example, his complaint was about the search. I agree there are problems with MSDN, including search. But it is useful still, very useful. Perhaps more so for .NET devs than C++ guys.
Life, family, faith: Give me a visit. From my latest post: "When Constantine severed the Hebrew origins of this faith in Messiah, a new religion was officially created. It is this religion that Orthodox Jews fear their relatives and friends becoming members of." Judah Himango
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Ok, I believe you. But none of it changes that MSDN is useful. Chris just replied to you saying Google found a result ...on MSDN of all things. You said that's exactly what you're talking about. Given Chris' example, if MSDN wasn't there, then Google wouldn't work. MSDN was useful in Chris' example, his complaint was about the search. I agree there are problems with MSDN, including search. But it is useful still, very useful. Perhaps more so for .NET devs than C++ guys.
Life, family, faith: Give me a visit. From my latest post: "When Constantine severed the Hebrew origins of this faith in Messiah, a new religion was officially created. It is this religion that Orthodox Jews fear their relatives and friends becoming members of." Judah Himango
Right, but what does it say about MSDN that their *own* search "engine" can't even find basic queries of *their* content? I mean c'mon, some of the searches I've done on Google were trivial and should have gotten direct hits by the MSDN search!!! On the other hand I do agree with you that some of the MSDN content is useful. You just have to know which parts :)
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I hate the API reference. I hate how the info for a single class is divided between multiple pages. So if I want to know about class X I first get to the page that describes class X. Then if I need to know about the members or methods I must go to a new page, the class X members page. And if some of the methods are overloaded I need to go to yet another page. It is so unbelievably freakingly annoying. I hate it, hate it, hate it. There are very few things in the world I truly dislike, but the MSDN API reference is one of them. It's up there with HBO canceling Deadwood back in 2006. It's just as stupid as Apple signing of on the contract allowing Microsoft using the windows concept back in the 80s. It's just as stupid as C# is good. It's just as stupid as Kildall from Digital Research not wanting to sign IBM's NDA back in '81 or '82 or when it was. Just unfathomable. They should just copy the organization of Javadoc. It's simple, lean and fast as hell. And ALL the info on a single class is on a single page. I just cannot understand what usability unfriendly monkeys designed MSDN. God!!!! Sometimes Microsoft can drive me up a wall. I know of NDoc and I think it has some JavaDoc like templates, but no one has used it for MSDN I think - and I don't know if that's at all possible, but man that would be nice.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn RandYou are soooo not right, imo... Taking the information on MSDN, every page would be 2-3k lines long, for the smallest classes.. and like tns of hundreds of lines for big classes.. Why you would never find any info in there! =/ P.S. Your answer just helped prove my point.. Whatever you do, in 99% the customer will not be fully satisfied.. :)
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Most of the time, I've tried avoiding visiting the MSDN website, and used the in-built help in the visual studio (Yes, I know it goes to MSDN anyway, and uses the IE engine to do that) just because it didn't have the horrible slow, utterly non-user friendly interface.. I've visited it recently, and I noticed quite a few changes, most for the best.. At least in my opinion.. The search works, and returns feasible results, the interface is simple, but functional.. It just looks more right.. What do you think? MSDN is here :P[^]
The one thing I do not like is the new MSDN memership downloads. Now I have to scroll up and down a menu to select items to download instead of the older style with a tree control. What a pain! Jury still out on the other changes...
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Right, but what does it say about MSDN that their *own* search "engine" can't even find basic queries of *their* content? I mean c'mon, some of the searches I've done on Google were trivial and should have gotten direct hits by the MSDN search!!! On the other hand I do agree with you that some of the MSDN content is useful. You just have to know which parts :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
On the other hand I do agree with you that some of the MSDN content is useful.
Yeah, but the minute amount of usefulness does not compensate for the general fact that MSDN sucks.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Judah Himango wrote:
Half the programming questions asked on this site could be answered with a cursory skim of an MSDN article or documentation page. Sometimes I'll answer folks by pointing directly to an MSDN article that answers the question.
Half the time? :laugh::laugh: The only help I give anyone around here any more is being a Google user! I am thinking of writing a guide to becoming a Code Project MVP. Most of the time all you have to do is find the key words in the OP and plug them into Google prefacing them with the key word "MSDN". Most times the first or one of the first five results is an MSDN article or blog that directly answers the OPs questions. Todays example.[^] :laugh:
led mike
led mike wrote:
Most of the time all you have to do is find the key words in the OP and plug them into Google prefacing them with the key word "MSDN".
A trick I use is to suffix the Google search string with "site:microsoft.com". For example: #pragma site:microsoft.com That returns a search for "#pragma" and restricts the search results to the Microsoft site. It works with any web site.
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your a$$ will be laminated. There are 10 kinds of people in the world: People who know binary and people who don't.
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My opinion of MSDN is minimal. I'm at the point where reading C++ header files is usually as productive and occasionally not as frustrating as reading MSDN articles. I really appreciate the bad/omitted coverage of exception handling in the c++ examples (often accompanied parenthetically with the statement "error handling omitted for brevity"). It makes the code that everyone cuts and pastes into their own projects a lot smaller and less robust, but much easier to understand... :omg:
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I especially like how they include only the most trivial examples for everything. Nothing that is actually useful. X|
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your a$$ will be laminated. There are 10 kinds of people in the world: People who know binary and people who don't.
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Most of the time, I've tried avoiding visiting the MSDN website, and used the in-built help in the visual studio (Yes, I know it goes to MSDN anyway, and uses the IE engine to do that) just because it didn't have the horrible slow, utterly non-user friendly interface.. I've visited it recently, and I noticed quite a few changes, most for the best.. At least in my opinion.. The search works, and returns feasible results, the interface is simple, but functional.. It just looks more right.. What do you think? MSDN is here :P[^]
Pros: 1) Definitive Information 2) Reliable Assistance Cons: 1) Spagetti 2) Heavy (It eats my web browser, gobbling up the available bandwidth like a hungry and greedy demon)
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A pessimist sees only the dark side of the clouds, and mopes; a philosopher sees both sides, and shrugs; an optimist doesn't see the clouds at all - he's walking on them. --Leonard Louis Levinson -
Jim Crafton wrote:
On the other hand I do agree with you that some of the MSDN content is useful.
Yeah, but the minute amount of usefulness does not compensate for the general fact that MSDN sucks.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Minute amount of usefulness? Hah! Don't make me laugh! Think about it this way.. What would you do if MSDN wasn't there for you? Google it? And where does info on google come from? Where do the rest of the people take it from? Books? They are also based on MSDN docs.. MSDN IS the official source information about Windows API.. It doesn't matter what form it comes in - VS help or online website.. It still doesn't change the fact that it is the source, the main source at least.. I do admit that they could have made MSDN a huge lot better, but even if it's not perfect, and not as useful as it was sometime before, it doesn't diminish the fact that it is there, and a massive amount of people out there use it.. and for a reason...
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Pros: 1) Definitive Information 2) Reliable Assistance Cons: 1) Spagetti 2) Heavy (It eats my web browser, gobbling up the available bandwidth like a hungry and greedy demon)
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage
Tech Gossips
A pessimist sees only the dark side of the clouds, and mopes; a philosopher sees both sides, and shrugs; an optimist doesn't see the clouds at all - he's walking on them. --Leonard Louis LevinsonVasudevan Deepak Kumar wrote:
- Heavy (It eats my web browser, gobbling up the available bandwidth like a hungry and greedy demon)
Did you see the latest msdn changes? It might still not be light, but I think that's one of the things that was greatly improved :)
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Minute amount of usefulness? Hah! Don't make me laugh! Think about it this way.. What would you do if MSDN wasn't there for you? Google it? And where does info on google come from? Where do the rest of the people take it from? Books? They are also based on MSDN docs.. MSDN IS the official source information about Windows API.. It doesn't matter what form it comes in - VS help or online website.. It still doesn't change the fact that it is the source, the main source at least.. I do admit that they could have made MSDN a huge lot better, but even if it's not perfect, and not as useful as it was sometime before, it doesn't diminish the fact that it is there, and a massive amount of people out there use it.. and for a reason...
Like Mr Duncan already pointed out - if you search for something using MSDN's site search, it probably won't find it. But if you then use Google with the exact same search criteria, Google lists a MSDN page at or near the top of the search results. How useful is *that* You need to perform two searches for the info you want. No amount of arguing will change my mind about MSDN.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Like Mr Duncan already pointed out - if you search for something using MSDN's site search, it probably won't find it. But if you then use Google with the exact same search criteria, Google lists a MSDN page at or near the top of the search results. How useful is *that* You need to perform two searches for the info you want. No amount of arguing will change my mind about MSDN.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I don't want to argue that MSDN is good.. My point (and you just prove it yourself) that it's not bad.. The search on MSDN is bad, it always was, and I guess that it will be (xcept if they implement it as a google google custom search[^].. But even if you use google, you still read the info on MSDN, right?
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I think MSDN is useless.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I'll give you a 5 on that John. About 90% of the time when I use the search tool, it returns me interesting, hopeful, tease links. All of which result in: "We're sorry. That link doesn't exist anymore..." The only thing worse than no database is a bad database. You would think MS could cull the bad links out. Jeesh
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