jobs.codeproject.com [modified]
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Well, that makes CP's intention to create a job-web site even more massive. According to my insights, I had considered 250 relatively a high charge for a job vacancy. Maybe this is not an answer to you, just I am tired from answering so many posts :) But, just imagine Linus, speculating with the freeware developers of Linux, by creating job-sites (in the worst case, embedded into linux web-sites) targeted to such audience using his 'channels', and starting to make money out of the employers. Again we would get back to the same ethical problem. CP had collected this community, from different purposes, and suddently, it starts earning "lots" of money "using" them :). In the end you can say, it is a win-win situation (omitting the ethical side, which clearly exists). But, still this can affect CP in a bad way, in the long term [see my reply to Chris Kaiser -- made after the post of "led mike"].
bigdenny200 wrote:
According to my insights, I had considered 250 relatively a high charge for a job vacancy.
Glad i was able to debunk that notion then.
bigdenny200 wrote:
But, just imagine Linus, speculating with the freeware developers of Linux, by creating job-sites (in the worst case, embedded into linux web-sites) targeted to such audience using his 'channels', and starting to make money out of the employers.
Wait, you don't think Linus works? You don't think he manages to make money off of his reputation? :~ I got news for you, brother: he does. Not by running a job site, but by working a job. Why? Probably because running a job site isn't interesting, and isn't a particularly good way to make a profit. And if you think you're tired of answering, i'm definitely tired of reading. I read the entire thread before replying, and ended more confused as to what you're upset about than before i started. I'll assume that English is not your first language and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you have presented a concrete line of reasoning (instead of vague allegations that "it might hurt someone at somepoint, somehow" or "it's unethical") here somewhere then please link to it.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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bigdenny200 wrote:
According to my insights, I had considered 250 relatively a high charge for a job vacancy.
Glad i was able to debunk that notion then.
bigdenny200 wrote:
But, just imagine Linus, speculating with the freeware developers of Linux, by creating job-sites (in the worst case, embedded into linux web-sites) targeted to such audience using his 'channels', and starting to make money out of the employers.
Wait, you don't think Linus works? You don't think he manages to make money off of his reputation? :~ I got news for you, brother: he does. Not by running a job site, but by working a job. Why? Probably because running a job site isn't interesting, and isn't a particularly good way to make a profit. And if you think you're tired of answering, i'm definitely tired of reading. I read the entire thread before replying, and ended more confused as to what you're upset about than before i started. I'll assume that English is not your first language and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you have presented a concrete line of reasoning (instead of vague allegations that "it might hurt someone at somepoint, somehow" or "it's unethical") here somewhere then please link to it.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
I think (hope) English is not your native language either ;).
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I think (hope) English is not your native language either ;).
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bigdenny200 wrote:
According to my insights, I had considered 250 relatively a high charge for a job vacancy.
Glad i was able to debunk that notion then.
bigdenny200 wrote:
But, just imagine Linus, speculating with the freeware developers of Linux, by creating job-sites (in the worst case, embedded into linux web-sites) targeted to such audience using his 'channels', and starting to make money out of the employers.
Wait, you don't think Linus works? You don't think he manages to make money off of his reputation? :~ I got news for you, brother: he does. Not by running a job site, but by working a job. Why? Probably because running a job site isn't interesting, and isn't a particularly good way to make a profit. And if you think you're tired of answering, i'm definitely tired of reading. I read the entire thread before replying, and ended more confused as to what you're upset about than before i started. I'll assume that English is not your first language and give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you have presented a concrete line of reasoning (instead of vague allegations that "it might hurt someone at somepoint, somehow" or "it's unethical") here somewhere then please link to it.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Sorry now finally, I got what you meant. "a concrete line of reasoning". 1. More or less concrete answer was my answer to C.Kaiser (after led mikes post). 2. Answer to Chris Maunder. 3. Btw. "ethics" is a very concrete notion I think. And I don't think It is vague, to ask whether something is ethical or not, especually, by more or less argumenting why I consider it unethical.
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CP is a free web-site hosting several thousands of articles, for "helping" programming community -- that is its sole purpose. By embedding a "paid massive" job web-site inside it, its purpose is being changed. Changing the purpose of CP might affect the enthusiasm of people who make controbutions to it. My only question was to raise discussions on how ethical it is to do what CP did. I think most of the CPians took it personally.
bigdenny200 wrote:
Changing the purpose of CP might affect the enthusiasm of people who make controbutions to it.
Here's where your reasoning falls apart (or ends): you don't present a theory as to why or how a job board might have such an effect on contributors. You note that it is a change to CP, but CP changes all the time - there has to be something specific about the change that would dampen our enthusiasm. I must believe that you have a scenario in mind when you write this: so what is it?
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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bigdenny200 wrote:
Changing the purpose of CP might affect the enthusiasm of people who make controbutions to it.
Here's where your reasoning falls apart (or ends): you don't present a theory as to why or how a job board might have such an effect on contributors. You note that it is a change to CP, but CP changes all the time - there has to be something specific about the change that would dampen our enthusiasm. I must believe that you have a scenario in mind when you write this: so what is it?
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
"but CP changes all the time". No it never does, at least its purpose never changes. The specificity of this change however, is that it has a high chance to change the purpose of CP. And in the worst case, the job web-site might take of so much that CP ends up as an employment agency :). Anyway, I think my English is good enough for a non English speaker, and I am again too tired to answer more questions. So, I am going to sleep :). Hope I was clear, else, you can consider anything about my reasonings in whatsoever manner. I tried to be clear enough, and my goal was not to criticize and say something bad about CP, rather to just figure out how 'right' -- towards developers -- and how 'good' -- towards themselves -- was it (in the long term) for them to do what they did. good night :)
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Why are you not happy when CP got money? I'm absolutely fine if Chris become a richest man in the world :)
Thanks and Regards, Michael Sync ( Blog: http://michaelsync.net)
Michael Sync wrote:
I'm absolutely fine if Chris become a richest man in the world
I think he would be miserable. So miserable, I would be willing to take my part in sharing that misery.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I think (hope) English is not your native language either ;).
Wow. Just a single '1' score, after so many sensitive discussions :). Funny is that, I was not even sarcastic in my reply, I really found Shog's reply confusing, so just wanted to make a joke on that particular message :).
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bigdenny200 wrote:
does not mean that you are a bigger fan of CP than I am
Chris, We need one more metric. FAN-O-METER ;P
Yusuf
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Please give a concrete example of how the job board could hurt this community.
Ok. You carve some listings into a concrete block and drop it on a community member. ;P
led mike
No, we've got some checks in place that will stop that. (At least we had them in the specs. Maybe that bit is still in beta...)
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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"but CP changes all the time". No it never does, at least its purpose never changes. The specificity of this change however, is that it has a high chance to change the purpose of CP. And in the worst case, the job web-site might take of so much that CP ends up as an employment agency :). Anyway, I think my English is good enough for a non English speaker, and I am again too tired to answer more questions. So, I am going to sleep :). Hope I was clear, else, you can consider anything about my reasonings in whatsoever manner. I tried to be clear enough, and my goal was not to criticize and say something bad about CP, rather to just figure out how 'right' -- towards developers -- and how 'good' -- towards themselves -- was it (in the long term) for them to do what they did. good night :)
bigdenny200 wrote:
No it never does, at least its purpose never changes.
That really depends a lot on what you consider its purpose to be. :sigh: I'm really not trying to put you down or argue. Rather, i'm curious as to how you see this potentially harming the site and/or those who frequent it. Criticizing a change because you have identified a potential and plausible danger posed by it is laudable; criticizing a change because you fear change is questionable at best. I merely wish to understand which of these categories you fall into in this thread.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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"but CP changes all the time". No it never does, at least its purpose never changes. The specificity of this change however, is that it has a high chance to change the purpose of CP. And in the worst case, the job web-site might take of so much that CP ends up as an employment agency :). Anyway, I think my English is good enough for a non English speaker, and I am again too tired to answer more questions. So, I am going to sleep :). Hope I was clear, else, you can consider anything about my reasonings in whatsoever manner. I tried to be clear enough, and my goal was not to criticize and say something bad about CP, rather to just figure out how 'right' -- towards developers -- and how 'good' -- towards themselves -- was it (in the long term) for them to do what they did. good night :)
I appreciate your comments and concerns. I guess all I can say is: I've put the last 10 years of my life into this. I'm not going to break it. All I want to do is make CodeProject better.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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I appreciate your comments and concerns. I guess all I can say is: I've put the last 10 years of my life into this. I'm not going to break it. All I want to do is make CodeProject better.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
As, I said form my previously deleted post :-O . I don't think it needs more clarifications that this is you objective Chris. You can just take my comments, as concerns, more then criticism, in order to 'watch your step' with this new initiative.
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Wow. Just a single '1' score, after so many sensitive discussions :). Funny is that, I was not even sarcastic in my reply, I really found Shog's reply confusing, so just wanted to make a joke on that particular message :).
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"Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you" Btw. an advice to change it to smth. like (or smth different and more specific): "Please read this if you did not find my answer helpful enough." Else, I thought it was a sarcastic signature, highlighting the fact that someone was not 'smart' enough to understand your post. Never read your article, so sorry if its content makes my remark "unapplicable".
bigdenny200 wrote:
Never read your article, so sorry if its content makes my remark "unapplicable".
It's an article on how to use google - thanks for the tip, I agree.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
1. Programming is fun. 2. It is not unethical to earn your living with what is your passion. You have to explain why it should be unethical. Most people here earn their money as developers, most people here do not religously believe in "everything on the internet should be free".
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
No, it effects the "image" one has about the author of the article. i.e. what is the idea about a hero who gets 1000 dollars for saving someone by risking his life, and the person who does the same just for free -- according to the contents, a very primitive example :), but it fits in the context.
Woah... that is dangerously close to saying that a fireman, who incidentally saves people from burning wreckage on a weekly basis, shouldn't get paid for doing his job and that you can't consider him a hero for doing it as he did it while paid to do it and thus that fact damages his image. In my opinion, if someone helps others out and gets rewarded for it in some way, good on the universe for actually doing that. Most of the time it is the people who don't help anyone at all who get rewarded. I dare you to try to get articles out of academia for free. Once they go into a journal, you have to spend 32 bucks to get a copy of it.
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Hey All, I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site. The community at CP, is mostly doing what they do for free, and I don't think it is a good idea, to "use" this fact, in order to run a business like jobs.codeproject.com. In a way, it turns CP to a web-site which is masked under the name of a free software developer's community, while at the same time, its owners get highly paid by employers for running the job.codeproject.com service. In the very least case, I think these web-sites should be hosted on two different domains. Else, one will end up with a web-site offering jobs, and no more developers :). Please don't get furious :). Just putting my opinion, I am sure many have thought about this beforehand, and also I think, the reality might be a bit different then I described. So, simple clarifications (without swearings) and discussions would be welcome. PS. Another implication can be that, when one sees a "great" article by some programmer at CP, one does not know it anymore, whether it was done on a purely enthusiastic basis, or with the purpose to attract job seekers. Of course, this is always the case, since someone can link to his article on CP, but with this new approach it makes it even more obvious and noticable. PS2. I think that if the web-site goes on running, it should limit itself in terms of received vacancies, and not become very massive. Else, CP will turn into an employment agency, instead of a software developer community, after a while. Cheers.
bigdenny200 wrote:
I wonder, how "ethically" correct it is to create a web-site like, jobs.codeproject.com, within (please correct me if I am wrong) the codeproject.com site.
Okay I'm correcting you. If you look at the top of the window at your browser address bar you will probably notice that even if you went to codeproject.com, you are actually now at www.codeproject.com. Thus, jobs.codeproject.com is merely at the same level and should remove all of your concerns. I realize it might be a bit confusing, but I'm happy to help out. :)
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I think the replies to your question by other regulars sum it up pretty well, but for the record I thought I'd offer my 2c. Firstly, our #1 priority is to the site and the development community. We're not going to do anything that ruins what we have. I feel like I've built this whole thing up with my bare hands so I'm not going to do anything that threatens what we have. Secondly, we need developers to help build more stuff for you guys but finding good devs is really hard, which is frustrating because so many of the very people we are trying to attract already come to our site. Almost every company I've spoken to has the same issue and so we thought the best thing to do is work out a way to hook up our 5 million members with all those companies looking for good talent in a way that is simple for our readers and simple for a company. Having a Job Board is a natural extension to what we have here at The Code Project: Resources to help you in your programming career. The thing is: we used to have a Job Board. It was crap and wasn't anywhere near the help we wanted it to be so we've bit the bullet and built something that will actually be useful. The only way it will work, though, is if we can have it pay for itself so we've adopted the standard model of having the Employer pay (and they are paying up to half what other sites charge) and the potential employees (you guys!) use it for free. We're constantly looking for new and better ways to help the development community. Some of those new ways might have a fee attached (like the job board) and others won't. As has been pointed out, running a site like The Code Project and hiring the best developers to work on it is an expensive proposition. With regards to the size of the board it is actually more useful the bigger it is. It won't detract from the rest of the site because it's in its own area, and the more jobs we can have posted the more chance of there being something that a developer on the site would be interested in.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I'm pretty sure that everyone who gets a job they like from that site is going to be quite pleased with the work you put into it. I'm just going to sit back and cheer you on from my little analyst cubicle where my once useful programming skills are slowly deteriorating into a mush of fortran induced agony. :)
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Well, I think by charging around 300$ for one job listing, on the community of 5 million programmers, goes far beyond earning the costs of running several CP severs. Correct me if I am wrong again.
What an unbelievably naive perspective you have. Do you think the cost of running something like CP is "just the cost of running several CP servers?" Ok, so we've got the hosting costs. Then the bandwidth costs - 5 million users generate a lot of accesses per day, 24x7 - that alone would be substantial - this is a globally used site. Then there is the development and maintenance costs - check the "about" page - there are 17 staff listed. Let's be really conservative and assume they are earning say, $40k pa, that costs $680,000 for salaries alone - the real figure is probably in excess of $1m. Yes CP does have advertising to help pay the way, but how many click-throughs or impressions would it need to generate $680,000 dollars? And you're complaining about $300 for adverts that you don't even have to pay for??? That could conceivably benefit you if you get a job as a result???? Some people just have no clue whatsoever.:mad:
'Howard