What to make of the vast void of silence
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I think the main problem is the learning curve. I have looked at VCF couple of times before but each time I was unable to put enough effort to learn how to use it. When I learned MFC there were no good alternatives so I *had* to go through the learning curve. Also there was this class hierarchy diagram which helped a lot, maybe something similar for VCF will help getting into it. But the killer feature, atleast for me, was auto generated code. What it did was allowed me to focus more on the functionality rather than GUI. Sure I made lots of stupid mistakes because I didn't understood the basics but it basically kept me using it. Another important thing is support. There are loads of books on MFC as well as forums where I can seek help when I am stuck. Finally, this is a matter of taste, but I hate doxygen style documentation. It is kind of equlivalent of going through source code and reading comments. I like MSDN style - a TreeView on the left and one function or a concept on the right (with links to other relevant sections). This way I have limited information at a time and can focus on what I want to read. I think psychologically very long pages sometimes makes simple things look complex. At least I get nervous every time I come across a library with everything dumped in a single html file. I must say I am saying all this when I looked into VCF sometime back and things might be different now. In that case please ignore my comments. -Saurabh
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
But the killer feature, atleast for me, was auto generated code. What it did was allowed me to focus more on the functionality rather than GUI.
The reason this is so crucial to MFC is because of it's piss poor design. MFC utterly fails without it.
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
I think the main problem is the learning curve.
Are you aware that there are over 100 examples, ranging from a simple HelloWorld app to all sort of other apps, both Gui and command line?
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
At least I get nervous every time I come across a library with everything dumped in a single html file.
I would too. Which is why I don't dump the doxygen into one html file.
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
Another important thing is support. There are loads of books on MFC as well as forums where I can seek help when I am stuck.
You mean these forums[^]? Been around since 2003.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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I voted your articles 5 because I know VCF is good (worked with a guy who used it on his previous job - a research lab in South Carolina) but did not even read them properly (I read very few articles nowdays), so no comments from me.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
worked with a guy who used it on his previous job
Really? Wow, that's always interesting to hear about others using it, not something I actually find out very often. I wonder how it went, or if they still use it (or maybe I don't really want to know... :) ).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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I recently submitted several new articles and what has surprised me a little is how little response I got. Well actually, pretty much none whatsoever would be more correct. I would have thought that some of the ideas being presented would have interested at least some of the people here, but apparently not. Am I missing something? Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond? People bitch and moan all the time at what Microsoft puts out, but when someone else comes along with an alternative, it's met with silence. I think this is a bit sad, because it means that we are locked into not *only* the development languages that Microsoft chooses to offer, but that even the design of software is now completely driven by them, alternate approaches be damned :( Doubly depressing of course is that despite a fair number of views, the uni-votes shoots the article rating to hell because so few people vote. What was going to be a series of articles now has me asking myself why I'm even bothering. Deduct man-points as you see fit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond?
I don't care about VCF... Continue with your passion for VCF.. but quit worrying about achieving some kind of notoriety about this subject.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond?
I don't care about VCF... Continue with your passion for VCF.. but quit worrying about achieving some kind of notoriety about this subject.
This isn't about the VCF per se. It's about any kind of design idea. Many of the designs in the VCF can be applied to C# (or wherever). Many of the ideas in the VCF come from non-Microsoft sources that have a lot of interesting solutions to common problems. Borland's VCL, Apple's Cocoa, etc. It's about designing a solution to problem, and my concern is that no one seems to give a damn unless the solution comes from Microsoft. I find that curious.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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I have 4 or 5 really good topics sitting down because I just don't have the desire to deal with the criticism from people can't be bothered to even read my GD introduction which explains the purpose of the code. It really just isn't worth it unless you are writing a MS clone to explain something MS was too lazy to document on MSDN. Instead of an article I am going to author a book, I think. Then I don't have to read the criticism and I will be an accepted expert on the subject. There is just something about writing an article online that makes a first year without experience want to tirade against your approach, not because they don't understand but because they didn't take the time to understand. It just makes me want to swear. Actually, I have one article I want to write on an amazing, non-existent technology that could revolutionize game programming but I don't want to read the "What's the point from the GDI's" eh, end rant. BTW, I give you man points.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
deal with the criticism from people can't be bothered
dude, thats what life is all about... if you cant handle critisism then people will walk all up and down your ass. youve got to learn to handle it and realize that most of the idiots posting the bad critisism arent half the programmers you and i are. on the other hand some of the more regular CP posters provide you with constructive critisism which almost defenitly leads to personal growth. thats the very reason i write articles. i like to think of them as(and said it in so man words in my latest article) a personal reference thats in the public domain. if some one wants to break ou down about our work then BLAH to them.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I have one article I want to write on an amazing, non-existent technology that could revolutionize game programming
i too would read that
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming) -
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
But the killer feature, atleast for me, was auto generated code. What it did was allowed me to focus more on the functionality rather than GUI.
The reason this is so crucial to MFC is because of it's piss poor design. MFC utterly fails without it.
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
I think the main problem is the learning curve.
Are you aware that there are over 100 examples, ranging from a simple HelloWorld app to all sort of other apps, both Gui and command line?
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
At least I get nervous every time I come across a library with everything dumped in a single html file.
I would too. Which is why I don't dump the doxygen into one html file.
Saurabh.Garg wrote:
Another important thing is support. There are loads of books on MFC as well as forums where I can seek help when I am stuck.
You mean these forums[^]? Been around since 2003.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
The reason this is so crucial to MFC is because of it's piss poor design. MFC utterly fails without it.
I agree somewhat with it, I was just sharing my experience.
Jim Crafton wrote:
Are you aware that there are over 100 examples, ranging from a simple HelloWorld app to all sort of other apps, both Gui and command line?
Yes I am.
Jim Crafton wrote:
I would too. Which is why I don't dump the doxygen into one html file.
Actually in a way you do that. Each class is documented as a single HTML file. And each chapter of reference manual is pretty large.
Jim Crafton wrote:
You mean these forums[^]? Been around since 2003.
I am also aware of forums but there are too few people using them. I am just sharing my experience as someone who tried to use VCF but gave up. -Saurabh
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I recently submitted several new articles and what has surprised me a little is how little response I got. Well actually, pretty much none whatsoever would be more correct. I would have thought that some of the ideas being presented would have interested at least some of the people here, but apparently not. Am I missing something? Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond? People bitch and moan all the time at what Microsoft puts out, but when someone else comes along with an alternative, it's met with silence. I think this is a bit sad, because it means that we are locked into not *only* the development languages that Microsoft chooses to offer, but that even the design of software is now completely driven by them, alternate approaches be damned :( Doubly depressing of course is that despite a fair number of views, the uni-votes shoots the article rating to hell because so few people vote. What was going to be a series of articles now has me asking myself why I'm even bothering. Deduct man-points as you see fit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Personally I wouldn't have come across your articles because I'm totally in the .net world at this point and if I want cross platform compatibility I can do it through MONO and Microsoft .net easier and easier as time goes by. And I won't vote on something I don't understand fully. Sometimes as painful as it is you have to ask yourself "Am I flogging a dead horse here?". Of course for many it's not the number of people that are interested, it's their own interest that drives them and it shouldn't matter how many others are interested. For others they are trying to do something that would be of benefit to a large number of others and if those others don't materialize then..well you know. I can't determine that one way or another, I know a lot of people here jump up and attack me about my liking .net because they have a firm belief in unmanaged code, those would be the people who should be the most interested in VCF I would think and there seem to be a fair number of them here. Perhaps they have no interest in cross platform work so your target market is an intersection of the set of unmanaged developers doing anything large and new who are also interested in cross platform development. To me that seems like a small number of people for this particular web site but I'm sure 40 will jump on here and refute me seconds after I hit Post Message. :)
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
deal with the criticism from people can't be bothered
dude, thats what life is all about... if you cant handle critisism then people will walk all up and down your ass. youve got to learn to handle it and realize that most of the idiots posting the bad critisism arent half the programmers you and i are. on the other hand some of the more regular CP posters provide you with constructive critisism which almost defenitly leads to personal growth. thats the very reason i write articles. i like to think of them as(and said it in so man words in my latest article) a personal reference thats in the public domain. if some one wants to break ou down about our work then BLAH to them.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I have one article I want to write on an amazing, non-existent technology that could revolutionize game programming
i too would read that
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming)I understand all of the reasons to post articles but when I weigh them all in it is difficult to be bothered given the pro's and con's. I may author another one in the future but for now I just keep a list, just in case.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
This isn't about the VCF per se. It's about any kind of design idea. Many of the designs in the VCF can be applied to C# (or wherever). Many of the ideas in the VCF come from non-Microsoft sources that have a lot of interesting solutions to common problems. Borland's VCL, Apple's Cocoa, etc. It's about designing a solution to problem, and my concern is that no one seems to give a damn unless the solution comes from Microsoft. I find that curious.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
I find that curious.
On a Microsoft centric development board? Why? I'm actually amazed at the number of non microsoft centric people that post here.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
worked with a guy who used it on his previous job
Really? Wow, that's always interesting to hear about others using it, not something I actually find out very often. I wonder how it went, or if they still use it (or maybe I don't really want to know... :) ).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Jim Crafton wrote:
I wonder how it went, or if they still use it (or maybe I don't really want to know... ).
Yes you do :) When I interviewed this guy (Dec 2006) I asked him about his current work and he mentioned they used VCF for the GUI stuff; they were (still are?) developing some system for simulating blood flow through vanes if I remember it correctly and the GUI part was used for the analysis of results. Of course, the mention of VCF rang a bell and I asked him how he liked it - his experience was very good; both with the framework itself and the support they got on the VCF forum.
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Personally I wouldn't have come across your articles because I'm totally in the .net world at this point and if I want cross platform compatibility I can do it through MONO and Microsoft .net easier and easier as time goes by. And I won't vote on something I don't understand fully. Sometimes as painful as it is you have to ask yourself "Am I flogging a dead horse here?". Of course for many it's not the number of people that are interested, it's their own interest that drives them and it shouldn't matter how many others are interested. For others they are trying to do something that would be of benefit to a large number of others and if those others don't materialize then..well you know. I can't determine that one way or another, I know a lot of people here jump up and attack me about my liking .net because they have a firm belief in unmanaged code, those would be the people who should be the most interested in VCF I would think and there seem to be a fair number of them here. Perhaps they have no interest in cross platform work so your target market is an intersection of the set of unmanaged developers doing anything large and new who are also interested in cross platform development. To me that seems like a small number of people for this particular web site but I'm sure 40 will jump on here and refute me seconds after I hit Post Message. :)
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
Actually more and more I don't see the VCF as so much cross platform, but simply a much easier way to program under windows. It's infinitely easier to program than either WTL or MFC, and has useful features that neither support. That said I'm pretty much at the point of just giving up in terms of a project. I would use it myself for anything I wrote at this point, but beyond that I've pretty much given up that anyone else will find anything useful about it.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
I find that curious.
On a Microsoft centric development board? Why? I'm actually amazed at the number of non microsoft centric people that post here.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
John C wrote:
I'm actually amazed at the number of non microsoft centric people that post here.
Huh... Do you find the number amazingly large, or amazingly small?
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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Jim Crafton wrote:
I find that curious.
On a Microsoft centric development board? Why? I'm actually amazed at the number of non microsoft centric people that post here.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
I find it curious that just about no one asks why are they using the technology they are programming in. Is there a better way? If so, why am I not using it? Are there other ideas out there that I can use within my current development environment/tools? I understand that a majority of people won't ask these questions. But it appears that *no one* does. And that's what strikes me as curious and sad.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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I recently submitted several new articles and what has surprised me a little is how little response I got. Well actually, pretty much none whatsoever would be more correct. I would have thought that some of the ideas being presented would have interested at least some of the people here, but apparently not. Am I missing something? Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond? People bitch and moan all the time at what Microsoft puts out, but when someone else comes along with an alternative, it's met with silence. I think this is a bit sad, because it means that we are locked into not *only* the development languages that Microsoft chooses to offer, but that even the design of software is now completely driven by them, alternate approaches be damned :( Doubly depressing of course is that despite a fair number of views, the uni-votes shoots the article rating to hell because so few people vote. What was going to be a series of articles now has me asking myself why I'm even bothering. Deduct man-points as you see fit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Feeling better now? :)
[My Blog]
"Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
"Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe -
John C wrote:
I'm actually amazed at the number of non microsoft centric people that post here.
Huh... Do you find the number amazingly large, or amazingly small?
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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I find it curious that just about no one asks why are they using the technology they are programming in. Is there a better way? If so, why am I not using it? Are there other ideas out there that I can use within my current development environment/tools? I understand that a majority of people won't ask these questions. But it appears that *no one* does. And that's what strikes me as curious and sad.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
Well I can't speak for others but at least once a year and during the year here and there I try to keep up with anything that will be of benefit for what I do and my customers and I make no assumptions that something better isn't out there. I'm one of a minority here who seem to have any control over what tools and technology they use at all and I keep my eyes open but I think a lot of people here are stuck with whatever they're told to use. I snap up and adopt in a microsecond any tool or technology that: A) saves me development time, B) brings more value to my end users.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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Feeling better now? :)
[My Blog]
"Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
"Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne MetcalfeYes :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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Much larger than I would have expected to be honest.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
Hmm... My guess is, Windows is so pervasive that the various forms of Windows development touch a lot of programmers who might not have a great deal of interest in it otherwise. Windows clients for *nix server apps, Windows development libraries for embedded devices, testing on IE for websites... ...and so they end up here, perhaps as the result of a Google search that fingered an article, or a link or recommendation. Why any would stick around to hang out in The Lounge is anyone's guess, but... let's face it... there's precious little discussion of Windows coding going on here most days, so it's not like that would drive them off.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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I recently submitted several new articles and what has surprised me a little is how little response I got. Well actually, pretty much none whatsoever would be more correct. I would have thought that some of the ideas being presented would have interested at least some of the people here, but apparently not. Am I missing something? Does no one have any interest in anything outside of the latest and greatest that comes out of Redmond? People bitch and moan all the time at what Microsoft puts out, but when someone else comes along with an alternative, it's met with silence. I think this is a bit sad, because it means that we are locked into not *only* the development languages that Microsoft chooses to offer, but that even the design of software is now completely driven by them, alternate approaches be damned :( Doubly depressing of course is that despite a fair number of views, the uni-votes shoots the article rating to hell because so few people vote. What was going to be a series of articles now has me asking myself why I'm even bothering. Deduct man-points as you see fit.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
I think it's got to do more with the titles of your articles and your perceived target audience than people's interest in the latest and greatest. Here's my reaction when I saw your articles: Including VCF in the title made me not want to take a good look at the articles now. For no reason other than I don't use the VCF and have no desire to start at this point in time. If I do down the road then I'll likely read your articles then. I did take a quick look, based more on your name than the article content or title. I didn't read them though. What that tells me is that I'm not in your target audience which, based on your article titles, I'd say is "VCF users on CP". That's a pretty small subset of the whole. If that's not your intended target them perhaps some rethinking of titles and/or article content would help. Cheers, Drew.
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I think it's got to do more with the titles of your articles and your perceived target audience than people's interest in the latest and greatest. Here's my reaction when I saw your articles: Including VCF in the title made me not want to take a good look at the articles now. For no reason other than I don't use the VCF and have no desire to start at this point in time. If I do down the road then I'll likely read your articles then. I did take a quick look, based more on your name than the article content or title. I didn't read them though. What that tells me is that I'm not in your target audience which, based on your article titles, I'd say is "VCF users on CP". That's a pretty small subset of the whole. If that's not your intended target them perhaps some rethinking of titles and/or article content would help. Cheers, Drew.
So if the article just had "A Model-View-Controller Design" as it's title would that have caught your interest? What difference does it make whether or not it's using the VCF? Haven't you just judged a book by it's cover without ever even glancing at it's content? Isn't that what developers regularly bitch and moan about others doing? I suppose what this really tells me is that, other than myself and my own usage, the VCF is a total waste of time. Which is a shame, but that's life.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog