Installs taking longer than downloads

Shog9 0

Heh, was just thinking about this while installing Firefox 3 the other day. Not because it installed slowly; because both the download and the installation took less time than the installation for Application Verifier (which i'd installed just the day before, and is only slightly smaller than FF). I suspect most installers are doing things they really shouldn't be doing...

Citizen 20.1.01

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

Nemanja Trifunovic

Paul Watson wrote:

Aero

That's something about UI ;P haven't even noticed it.

Paul Watson wrote:

UAC

A *very good thing* - Ubuntu has a similar approach with "sudo".

Paul Watson wrote:

rough edges

Such as?

Paul Watson wrote:

inconsistencies

Such as?

Paul Watson wrote:

change-for-change-sake

Every software product has that :)

Paul Watson wrote:

no command-line improvements

OK, I'll give you that one. But still, the integrated search simply rocks, UAC is a good thing (sorry) and there finally is a proper 64-bit version of desktop Windows.

Programming Blog utf8-cpp

Paul Watson · Citizen 20.1.01

Shog9 wrote:

I suspect most installers are doing things they really shouldn't be doing...

"Please wait while we scan your HD and send a list of our competitors on your machine back to our marketing team. They will be in contact shortly..."

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

Mike Dimmick

Windows Installer is at least partly to blame. The concept sounds great: you declare in a database everything you want to install, the installer core service decides whether a suitable version of each component is already installed and if not, to install it. But we really want to do it transactionally, in an all-or-nothing fashion, and allow low-privileged users to run elevated installs, so we first check all the versions and write a script, then we pass that script to a high-privileged service to execute it. This means we touch every key file already present once, to determine whether it needs to be updated. We still have to try to find the file, even if it isn't there. (This takes a non-zero amount of time.) Any file we do overwrite we have to back up, so we can roll back the install if it fails. Files that are in use have to be installed somewhere else and we call MoveFileEx so they can be overwritten at the next reboot. So we have some idea what went wrong when the install doesn't work properly, we have to log everything we do. It's common now to log everything - hey, we're not short of disk space - so the logging takes longer and longer. It turns out that building a component out of multiple files doesn't work very well - repair checks only the key file, so if any other file in the component is missing or the wrong version, the repair won't pick it up. The solution is to make each file a separate component. This seriously bloats the registry for tracking components, adds more logging to detail each component installed, and causes more file checks overall. Files that don't have a version can be hashed to see if the file is already present and potentially save a file copy operation. However, if the file is in a CAB, such as the embedded CAB, its data will have to be read anyway - CAB compression is on a whole-archive basis, not per-file like ZIP. Really all hashing saves is if an entire CAB can be eliminated. It's really for avoiding downloading CABs from the internet or over the network, if using an HTTP MSI or an administrative share. However, MD5 over a large file takes quite some time, particularly because Windows Installer is stupid enough to try to map the whole file in one contiguous block of virtual address space. (See Wine equivalent[^]). Because components, not resources, are tracked, it's important to keep the

Hamed Musavi

I read in news that a cheaper service is going to come in a year or so. It's based on a new broad band line that's going to start it's work soon. I hope it come. There are a lot to download already.

// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I_am_alive)
{
cout<<"I love to do more than just programming.";
}

Shog9 0

Paul Watson wrote:

"Please wait while we scan your HD and send a list of our competitors on your machine back to our marketing team. They will be in contact shortly..."

Heh, well, that of course, but i was thinking more along the lines of software that can't just be copied onto the machine and run, instead acting like a kid sent to bed but not tired, constantly calling back Ma Installer for one unnecessary little bit of attention after another: component registrations that could be installed local to the app rather than for the machine as a whole, writing configuration defaults that could have lived in pre-written config files (or just built into the app itself), etc... You know, all that stuff that'll eventually fall apart and require the app to be re-installed since it can't live without its installer.

Citizen 20.1.01

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

QuiJohn

Paul Watson wrote:

Aero, UAC, rough edges, inconsistencies, change-for-change-sake and no command-line improvements. I've gone back to Windows XP when I need Windows.

I've found UAC to be a good improvement... why it needs to darken the entire desktop is a bit of a mystery, but the functionality is nice. My single biggest gripe about Vista is the complete botch job that is Windows Explorer. Nothing quite works the way I expect it to: navigating UP a folder is just silly (the address bar tries to do too many things), view settings are always wrong (yeah, I'd love to rate my CPP files out of 5 stars, thanks) and continually need to be reset, even with SP1 file copying (and moving!) is startlingly slow, and it crashes. Otherwise Vista has kinda grown on me. :)

Faith is a fine invention For gentlemen who see; But microscopes are prudent In an emergency! -Emily Dickinson

originSH

Aero - a graphics card accelerated desktop is a good thing in my book, you might not like the look but thats subjective. UAC - It's annoying but I've yet to hear of a better solution to the problem. Rough Edges - Actually I find the whole experience fairly smooth but is that not what you mean? It does feel a bit V1.0 in places which leads to ... Inconsistencies - Yep your totally right :/ but then this has been a problem with all Windows OSs. It has been made worse in this version though because of the large amount of dialogs etc that have been revamped. Change-For-Change-Sake - Such as? I can't think of anything thats changed that wouldn't have a reason of either "We're trying to correct things we think were mistakes" or "We're trying to remove the inconsistencies". Command-Line Improvements - Yeah it sucks :( they should have included PowerShell as standard. Good thing you can easily download eh ;)

Paul Watson

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:

A *very good thing* - Ubuntu has a similar approach with "sudo".

sudo and UAC are not trivial for normal users. We techies get it, most people don't. UAC also pops up when I least expect it. sudo never pops up, it appears when I explicitly do something I know requires higher rights. Mac OS X isn't perfect but the "enter password" security happens mainly when you are expecting it (installations, changing admin settings etc.) Almost every Vista box I've used has had UAC turned off by now. A shame, but Vista botched it. Hopefully they get it right in Windows 7

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:

Such as?

Other people have done it for me. Google will give you many more lists and rants and articles. More than I remember seeing for Windows XP. Coding horror Vista inconsistencies[^]. Chris Pirillo's feedback.[^] More from Chris[^]. Paul Thurrot's[^].

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:

Every software product has that [Smile]

Not all software is your main operating system. Vista just needed some finishing work, it seems to have a good core.

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:

the integrated search simply rocks

I'm glad they finally put it in but there are better implementations out there in 3rd party Windows apps and even Spotlight on Mac OS X (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Took them till Leopard to get application launching right.)

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A

Lost User

I set up a Vista PC at work and the install was easy. I don't use it however.

Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

Paul Watson

Trollslayer wrote:

I don't use it however.

Curious, what do you use, Windows XP?

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

Dirk Higbee

Vista was originally Longhorn in the beginning and then MS split it into two and released Vista and Windows Server 08. Vista was a business concept that is made to work well in an environment of a network being run by Server 08 and Forefront Security Client. When they split the program it allowed them to sell the OS to Joe User instead of just marketing to businesses. However, my Vista on my box works just fine and I keep the UAC on as it was partially designed to keep behind the scenes Malware from being installed that would infect the root file.

"Pigs don't know pigs stink."

Paul Watson

originSH wrote:

UAC - It's annoying but I've yet to hear of a better solution to the problem.

Mac OS X does a better job IMO. Less intrusive and it appears when you expect it.

originSH wrote:

you might not like the look but thats subjective

UI is not subjective, it can be measured and benchmarked. It isn't arty farty graphic design. (Though I do find the artsy fartsy side of Aero Glass to be ugly as sin. Too dark, too "hey, I'm controlling the Enterprise!")

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

Harvey Saayman

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! we just got ADSL a moth ago, paying R410 for the line(4mbps) and R500 and something for 10gig semi-unshaped cap.

Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL

you.suck = (you.passion != Programming)

Paul Watson · Citizen 20.1.01

Shog9 wrote:

software that can't just be copied onto the machine and run

Yeah, when a 100k text-editor requires a managed install you know whoever wrote it thinks a bit too highly of their app. "What do you mean you don't want to integrate my app. into every single other app. on your computer? You just want to edit txt files! Fool!" I was completely thrown by the Mac OS X app "install" process when I first used it. No install? You just double click and it runs from whatever location? And you can "uninstall" by deleting the folder? WTF? Now I get annoyed when software tries to install itself. A lot of the utilities I download I run straight from the DMG (package) file to see if the utility is worth copying to my Applications directory. A lot of apps never make it that far and they don't leave bits of themselves everywhere. I now see efforts like Portable Apps[^] and wonder why that isn't the default way on Windows.

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

originSH

Paul Watson wrote:

Mac OS X does a better job IMO. Less intrusive and it appears when you expect it.

Whats the MacOS one like? How is it less intrusive and what do you mean by "when you would expect"? (Thats genuine interest btw ;))

Paul Watson wrote:

UI is not subjective, it can be measured and benchmarked. It isn't arty farty graphic design. (Though I do find the artsy fartsy side of Aero Glass to be ugly as sin. Too dark, too "hey, I'm controlling the Enterprise!")

How is Aero different in UI experience to Classic? If it's too dark then pick a lighter colour ;) MS really should have included more themes.

Andy Brummer

I just installed CS3 in under 20 minutes, but if you compared my machine to the ones that I installed photoshop 7 on it should have taken 5.

I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon

Paul Watson

You check all the options?

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

Andy Brummer

I think I'm going to have one of those oh, crap moments. No, I just did the default install. What am I missing out on, or actually my wife in this case?

I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon

Paul Watson

I can't remember, my brain has blanked that day out and only the wreckage remains. I just looked at the product page for CS3 Design Premium and I installed all of it:

\* Adobe InDesign® CS3
\* Adobe Photoshop® CS3 Extended
\* Adobe Illustrator® CS3
\* Adobe Flash® CS3 Professional
\* Adobe Dreamweaver® CS3
\* Adobe Acrobat 9
\* Plus Adobe Fireworks® CS3

The first two times I tried to install it failed because of files hanging around from a beta/trial. At a later date I had a clean machine and the install went better, plus I only checked Photoshop, Flash and Acrobat 9.

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.