Schools still teach COBOL!
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John C wrote:
Also finance at it's core really hasn't changed much in hundreds of years
Maybe the core stuff is static - the trading systems become more esoteric almost daily. Try pricing some of the exotic deals around the trading floor. Then try designing a system to price the deals (generically).:mad: And yep I know some global FIs that are still running cobol as their core systems, my son in law works for one, and don't they pay him handsomely to drive their outdated systems. Pity there is no career path for him though.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Maybe the core stuff is static
That's what I meant, banks and the traditional stuff they do, not the stocks and bonds and currency trading stuff.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Pity there is no career path for him though.
In some ways it would be ideal though, particularly for an older person who doesn't want to constantly learn new stuff all the time, I can think of quite a few people here that would find that job ideal based on their opinions of new technology coming from Microsoft. ;)
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
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i know for a fact that banking systems here in South Africa are cobol. its been like that for ages, one of the banks here give FREE training on cobol programming twice a year i think, because its cheaper to train people to use an old language and then employ them than to rewrite the systems in a newer one. something else that surprised me while working as a casual for an outsource IT company that support this banks computers is that the dual chip quad core servers in every branch runs on.... wait for it... OS2! and the tellers terminals are dummies that "download" their "OS" from the server upon booting. weird to think that our money is managed by programs as old as the earth :D
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming) -
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Maybe the core stuff is static
That's what I meant, banks and the traditional stuff they do, not the stocks and bonds and currency trading stuff.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Pity there is no career path for him though.
In some ways it would be ideal though, particularly for an older person who doesn't want to constantly learn new stuff all the time, I can think of quite a few people here that would find that job ideal based on their opinions of new technology coming from Microsoft. ;)
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
John C wrote:
particularly for an older person
He's the son in law and I'm the old fart:laugh:.
John C wrote:
who doesn't want to constantly learn new stuff all the time
As I sit here contemplating a potential Workflow project and shudder at the idea of getting into WPF. I don't mind learning the new stuff so much as I still get a thrill out of putting together an elegant solution. I just hate having to throw it away after I have spent months getting to know at technology deep enough to make it useful. If it was just once or twice I could live with it :sigh: but I have had to do it many times and it does get a little wearing.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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EHaskins wrote:
CICS
The more/only interesting thing about CICS is that it's one of the few applications developed using a formal specification language, in this case, Z[^].
EHaskins wrote:
Does anyone still use COBOL in business? I mean is this really what people go to school for?
I wouldn't - I'd go (I did go) to school to learn how to learn. That way, you can pick up new and different technologies that weren't around when you were at school.
Stuart Dootson wrote:
The more/only interesting thing about CICS is that it's one of the few applications developed using a formal specification language, in this case, Z[^].
Do you understand the difference between a programming language and a specification languge? There is a huge difference.
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Don't get me wrong, there would have been major problems all over the world at the time but what people seem to forget is that a lot of people worked very long hours for a long time prior to the rollover patching and upgrading hardware and software. We were at it full time for all of 2000 working at a variety of places including hospitals where if we hadn't done the patches some medical software would have screwed up medication plans, babies would have had the wrong age recorded etc. At financial places mortgages would have been screwed up, at lawyers offices their appointments would have been messed up, at an oil and gas storage facility all sorts of very bad things would have happened, those were just some of the things I was personally involved with. We had to patch so much at the hospital (and this was a relatively small hospital in a relatively small city) that they paid us to sit there on new years eve and confirm everything was working properly after midnight because there were so many serious systems involved. It would have all added up to a huge mess if it wasn't for the people that prevented it. Now it's a joke to most people but not to the ones that were there and prevented it from happening.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
You got me totally wrong there. I wasn't joking at it; I meant to tell that the problem itself was seen by the general public as something which cannot be solved and therefore the universe *will* halt at 2000. The media - every news paper, every news channel was talking about it repeatedly. Now, the fact that it has been solved is making the 2038 problem[^] gain no popularity at all.
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->Rajesh<-·´¯`·. Codeproject.com: Visual C++ MVP
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What do you really know about OS/2? You seem to be uninformed of the age of OS/2. Which is older; OS/2, Windows or Unix? Do you know what a "thin client" is?
Sam Hobbs wrote:
What do you really know about OS/2?
not much :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
You seem to be uninformed of the age of OS/2.
i am :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
Which is older; OS/2, Windows or Unix?
no idea :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
Do you know what a "thin client" is?
not a clue :)
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming) -
Stuart Dootson wrote:
The more/only interesting thing about CICS is that it's one of the few applications developed using a formal specification language, in this case, Z[^].
Do you understand the difference between a programming language and a specification languge? There is a huge difference.
Ummmm - yeah. By "developed", I was referring to the whole software development lifecycle, from requirement specification through to implementation. I'm quite aware that something like Z allows you to define a software specification in a form that you can reason about.
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I've been looking into Computer Science and Software Engineering schools lately, and I couldn't believe it when I saw that UW-Plattville teaches COBOL as part of their Comp Sci BS. Course description: Programming in COBOL To develop an understanding of and provide practice in the use of proper strategies and techniques for business program design and development. To develop ability to apply the COBOL language to implement problem solutions. To gain the background for further study of software design and computer programming in a business environment. Emphasis on structured programming and program style. AND CICS Application Programming An introduction to CICS command-level programming using COBOL. Techniques to design and develop online application programs with CICS, a data communication system to maintain and access files and databases AND Applications in Information Systems Applications of computer programming and system development concepts, principles and practices to a comprehensive system development project. A team approach is used to design and develop a realistic system of moderate complexity. Also includes coverage of advanced features of the COBOL language. Most of the other schools I looked into used some combination of C, C++, Java, .net, and sometimes optional courses dedicated to the history of languages. Does anyone still use COBOL in business? I mean is this really what people go to school for? Original source, left column about 1/3 down.
Total geek! :)
Lot's of "old school" companies still use Cobol. I work for an Insurance company that (currently)heavily relies on that archaic language, however, it's my job to put those guys out to pasture as my group is responsible for creating/rewritting/converting our Mainframe/Cobol applications to more webbased ASP.NET/C# code. Also, they needed a Cobol programmer last year (due to a retirement) and couldn't find anyone under the age of 50 to apply, so companies that still use it m ight want to take a 5 year look ahead and see what resources will be available to support those systems.
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Sam Hobbs wrote:
What do you really know about OS/2?
not much :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
You seem to be uninformed of the age of OS/2.
i am :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
Which is older; OS/2, Windows or Unix?
no idea :)
Sam Hobbs wrote:
Do you know what a "thin client" is?
not a clue :)
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Junior Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.passion != Programming)OS/2 was designed by IBM as the operating system that would be ported to all there computers. IBM did and does have a variety of processor systems. Many developers are unaware of the many other types of processors that IBM makes other than PC types. Businesses however are aware of the other processors. Most of the IBM systems that are not PCs do not have Windows. OS/2 was initially developed a few years before Windows NT; I am not sure, but it was about two years. Initially Microsoft was committed to help develop OS/2, but they did not fulfill the commitment nd instead developed NT. OS/2 was a great operating system when it was developed and it still is. A lot of the design of NT was based on OS/2, but Unix deserves a lot of credit too. A "Thin Client" is a system that is a lot like what you said in the sense that many of them boot from the network instead of from a local drive. See thinclient.org. It is more common than you are aware of.
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I've been looking into Computer Science and Software Engineering schools lately, and I couldn't believe it when I saw that UW-Plattville teaches COBOL as part of their Comp Sci BS. Course description: Programming in COBOL To develop an understanding of and provide practice in the use of proper strategies and techniques for business program design and development. To develop ability to apply the COBOL language to implement problem solutions. To gain the background for further study of software design and computer programming in a business environment. Emphasis on structured programming and program style. AND CICS Application Programming An introduction to CICS command-level programming using COBOL. Techniques to design and develop online application programs with CICS, a data communication system to maintain and access files and databases AND Applications in Information Systems Applications of computer programming and system development concepts, principles and practices to a comprehensive system development project. A team approach is used to design and develop a realistic system of moderate complexity. Also includes coverage of advanced features of the COBOL language. Most of the other schools I looked into used some combination of C, C++, Java, .net, and sometimes optional courses dedicated to the history of languages. Does anyone still use COBOL in business? I mean is this really what people go to school for? Original source, left column about 1/3 down.
Total geek! :)
EHaskins wrote:
I couldn't believe it when I saw that UW-Plattville teaches COBOL as part of their Comp Sci BS
You give the impression that you are not serious about answers, you just want to dump regardless of the truth.
EHaskins wrote:
Most of the other schools I looked into used some combination of C, C++, Java, .net
Teaching C but not COBOL is impractical. Knowing C is important to understand existing software but there is not much new development using C. There is a lot more new development using COBOL than using C. At the time that Visual Basic was developed by Microsoft, COBOL was a better language than Basic. The Pascal language was better by definiton of Pascal than the Basic language. Microsoft made a bad choice of languages when they chose Basic as the language to improve upon. Microsoft chose Basic for financial reasons, not technical (quality of the langauge) reasons. If you want to dump, dump on Basic; it was not designed to be practical; it was initially developed just for educational use.
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Lot's of "old school" companies still use Cobol. I work for an Insurance company that (currently)heavily relies on that archaic language, however, it's my job to put those guys out to pasture as my group is responsible for creating/rewritting/converting our Mainframe/Cobol applications to more webbased ASP.NET/C# code. Also, they needed a Cobol programmer last year (due to a retirement) and couldn't find anyone under the age of 50 to apply, so companies that still use it m ight want to take a 5 year look ahead and see what resources will be available to support those systems.
COBOL is a better language than Basic. COBOL is a standard langauge whereas VB is not. VB is proprietary to Microsoft. It is very possible that developers and their management will learn that COBOL is worth using. If companies are having difficulty finding COBOL programmers, then learning COBOL in college might make a difference in getting a job after graduation.
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COBOL is a better language than Basic. COBOL is a standard langauge whereas VB is not. VB is proprietary to Microsoft. It is very possible that developers and their management will learn that COBOL is worth using. If companies are having difficulty finding COBOL programmers, then learning COBOL in college might make a difference in getting a job after graduation.
Whether Cobol is better then any language is a matter of opinion, and though it might be true that it's the standard language where Microsoft isn't, facts are cobol jobs are about 1 to 10 or less (a quick check of any job board will show a very small number of cobol jobs compared to .NET) In our company we have a dedicated Cobol team...and that team is going away and being replaced by Web based, Microsoft applications...because management wants it that way, and I'm happy to provide that service. I simply stated that it was difficult to for them (that team) to find someone young who knows Cobol. That doesn't mean it's not a good language or isn't used, as there are plenty of Fortune 500 orgs that use it, and I'm sure a number of younger people who work with it daily...for now. If someone wants to learn it in college, good on them, hope they do well. I'm sure they'll find work, it just won't be near as avaiable as jobs in more current more widely used languages. Oh, I was a Cold Fusion dev for 3 years...talk about a language that's not widely used...lol
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Whether Cobol is better then any language is a matter of opinion, and though it might be true that it's the standard language where Microsoft isn't, facts are cobol jobs are about 1 to 10 or less (a quick check of any job board will show a very small number of cobol jobs compared to .NET) In our company we have a dedicated Cobol team...and that team is going away and being replaced by Web based, Microsoft applications...because management wants it that way, and I'm happy to provide that service. I simply stated that it was difficult to for them (that team) to find someone young who knows Cobol. That doesn't mean it's not a good language or isn't used, as there are plenty of Fortune 500 orgs that use it, and I'm sure a number of younger people who work with it daily...for now. If someone wants to learn it in college, good on them, hope they do well. I'm sure they'll find work, it just won't be near as avaiable as jobs in more current more widely used languages. Oh, I was a Cold Fusion dev for 3 years...talk about a language that's not widely used...lol
You are contradicting yourself. You say that there are not many jobs available for COBOL programmers and you say that your company has had difficulty finding COBOL programmers below the age of 50. An important question is how much competition there is for the .Net positions. If there are many college students learning .Net and very few learning COBOL then the students that have learned COBOL might have no problem getting a job whereas there would be a lot of competition for languages that are taught more commonly. I agree that it is important to learn languages such as C++ and Java. Note that .Net is not a language.