all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer"
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leppie wrote:
I hate any web related development.
I'll second what that. I hate web work. You won't catch me doing it any time soon. I prefer the structure and discipline of client apps. Web stuff seems to be all over the place and thinly held together with java script - ick.
Simon
Stop being ignorant.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Gizz wrote:
As for winforms, its dead in the water. WPF seems to be the way to go here.
I'm not so sure about that. MS don't seem to be dropping winforms. WPF is talked about as an alternative for media rich apps. Personally, I love WPF. I'll be using it where ever possible on future projects.
Simon
I'd have no problem moving to WPF and/or Silverlight. I've no particular fondness of win forms, especially when you start inheriting forms. You get to that age when you're starting a family and you're settled in a city. I live in the Peterborough, UK and want to stay here. I've got to go with whats available being outside any major software development hub like London etc.
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I've been developing windows applications for 10 years. I've noticed nearly all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer". I'm starting to wonder if its time I gave up my c++ mfc/c# win forms stuff and got over to web development... Do people also see this trend? Are people on here in the same situation? Some places have referred to backend web developer. A backend web developer is basically a developer isn't it?
JamesA_Dev wrote:
Some places have referred to backend web developer. A backend web developer is basically a developer isn't it?
Pretty much. Think of a client/server app. Back-end web developers are the server-side, front-end are the client-side. You'll need to understand state better though as typical web models are less stateful than desktop client/server. Good API design knowledge will help you, whatever the protocol.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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When I applied for my new job, I was told web work would be secondary, the whole time I have been here, just web sh*t. I hate any web related development. My next employment contract will have a clause about the maximum allowed time I will work on web related stuff (20% or lower per day/week, after that I will stop, or continue at double or triple rate). Personally I am sick of people bullsh*tting you into crap end jobs.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
just web sh*t
What do you define as "web sh*t"? We have PhDs here working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects. They work on terabyte data samples and think the web brings them an awful lot that they wouldn't have had access to without the web.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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[rantmode] Management is moving it's focus to the web, a somewhat dated trend. Most of them see "Rich Client Apps" as outdated Windows-95 stuff. They want the new & cool webthings, since "everything" is moving to the web. The most annoying is it when people tend to look onto WinForms as being single-user. People arguing that you need to use ASP.NET, because the application needs to be multi-user (and then insist on using MS-Access because SQL Server Express is "overkill") From a technological viewpoint, I'd say the future is mixed, parts being web-oriented and partially rich clients. Desktop-applications using webservices, web-applications launching ActiveX to achieve rich functionality and the likes. From a realistical viewpoint, the future will be web-based. Lot's of XML, lots of JavaScript and lots of standards (and not a single browser that supports them all!) :mad: [/rantmode]
eddyvluggen wrote:
From a technological viewpoint, I'd say the future is mixed, parts being web-oriented and partially rich clients. Desktop-applications using webservices, web-applications launching ActiveX to achieve rich functionality and the likes.
I'm a web-developer and I gave you a 5 for that. I love it when desktop-apps. are web-aware and when websites work in tandem with your desktop, mobile and home fridge.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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I've been developing windows applications for 10 years. I've noticed nearly all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer". I'm starting to wonder if its time I gave up my c++ mfc/c# win forms stuff and got over to web development... Do people also see this trend? Are people on here in the same situation? Some places have referred to backend web developer. A backend web developer is basically a developer isn't it?
Meh. MFC/WinForms is old and boring and takes too much effort for too little payoff. Well, sometimes. :rolleyes: Truth of the matter is, vast numbers of desktop apps never should have been desktop apps. They should have been terminal apps, some of them were terminal apps, and The Web is the new platform for this. Easier to deploy, easier to maintain/update, safer than letting some disgruntled sales guy walk away with all your price tables on his laptop...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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eddyvluggen wrote:
Management is moving it's focus to the web, a somewhat dated trend. Most of them see "Rich Client Apps" as outdated Windows-95 stuff. They want the new & cool webthings, since "everything" is moving to the web.
What's good about my management is they don't focus on the technology or platform. They tell me what they want to achieve and I get to analyse and decide on the best platform.
Simon
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[rantmode] Management is moving it's focus to the web, a somewhat dated trend. Most of them see "Rich Client Apps" as outdated Windows-95 stuff. They want the new & cool webthings, since "everything" is moving to the web. The most annoying is it when people tend to look onto WinForms as being single-user. People arguing that you need to use ASP.NET, because the application needs to be multi-user (and then insist on using MS-Access because SQL Server Express is "overkill") From a technological viewpoint, I'd say the future is mixed, parts being web-oriented and partially rich clients. Desktop-applications using webservices, web-applications launching ActiveX to achieve rich functionality and the likes. From a realistical viewpoint, the future will be web-based. Lot's of XML, lots of JavaScript and lots of standards (and not a single browser that supports them all!) :mad: [/rantmode]
So all those mad VT100 skillz from the 80s still apply. Kewl. :) We now have smart terminals to replace the dumb ones, trouble being they're about as smart as 2 year old monkeys.
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[rantmode] Management is moving it's focus to the web, a somewhat dated trend. Most of them see "Rich Client Apps" as outdated Windows-95 stuff. They want the new & cool webthings, since "everything" is moving to the web. The most annoying is it when people tend to look onto WinForms as being single-user. People arguing that you need to use ASP.NET, because the application needs to be multi-user (and then insist on using MS-Access because SQL Server Express is "overkill") From a technological viewpoint, I'd say the future is mixed, parts being web-oriented and partially rich clients. Desktop-applications using webservices, web-applications launching ActiveX to achieve rich functionality and the likes. From a realistical viewpoint, the future will be web-based. Lot's of XML, lots of JavaScript and lots of standards (and not a single browser that supports them all!) :mad: [/rantmode]
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leppie wrote:
just web sh*t
What do you define as "web sh*t"? We have PhDs here working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects. They work on terabyte data samples and think the web brings them an awful lot that they wouldn't have had access to without the web.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
HTML, JavaScript, CSS, AJAX, ASP.NET, Postbacks, Callbacks! (web services are not included to this list) Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
When I applied for my new job, I was told web work would be secondary, the whole time I have been here, just web sh*t. I hate any web related development. My next employment contract will have a clause about the maximum allowed time I will work on web related stuff (20% or lower per day/week, after that I will stop, or continue at double or triple rate). Personally I am sick of people bullsh*tting you into crap end jobs.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
I hate any web related development.
Hmmmm, I actually like working with HTTP protocol, as long as I serve only data (XML, or JSON, or whatever format), and leave HTML/CSS/JS to real web developers :)
modified on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:03 AM
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leppie wrote:
I hate any web related development.
Hmmmm, I actually like working with HTTP protocol, as long as I serve only data (XML, or JSON, or whatever format), and leave HTML/CSS/JS to real web developers :)
modified on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:03 AM
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HTML, JavaScript, CSS, AJAX, ASP.NET, Postbacks, Callbacks! (web services are not included to this list) Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
You seem to be saying that "web" is a client-side thing when really it is the HTTP and URI layers on the Internet Protocol. You don't have to do anything with HTML, JavaScript or CSS to be doing web work. I spend most of my time working on data sources exposed via web-services to a multitude of clients. Some of those clients use HTML/CSS/JavaScript while others are Cocoa or WPF/.NET powered. I happen to like HTML/CSS/JavaScript clients because they are easy to deploy and update. The PhD guys consider it web work because they are making use of the world wide web. Don't tar and feather "web dev" because you are stuck with debugging IE and Firefox issues in CSS/JavaScript. A lot of us get to do pretty damned cool web dev work.
leppie wrote:
Postbacks
That is ASP.NET shit, not web shit. I detest that style now.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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HTML, JavaScript, CSS, AJAX, ASP.NET, Postbacks, Callbacks! (web services are not included to this list) Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)Another thing is that CSS and JavaScript are not even technically needed to form a cohesive, usable web. They are device and user specific; made for humans with nice screens. The web is "meant" to be device neutral. The web is an addressable document/resource store. HTML happens to be the most prevalent resource format. Plenty of non-HTML resources out there though (JPG, GIF, MOV, AVI, XML, JSON, CSV, TXT, XML, SWF.) I wish every developer would embrace the vast web of information out there and use it where appropriate and in an appropriate manner. It is not web vs. desktop. Its desktop using web and web working with desktop/mobile/TV/fridge. And I wish web-developers would stop building websites that make it hard for desktop developers to parse and use.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
modified on Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:31 AM
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leppie wrote:
Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
You seem to be saying that "web" is a client-side thing when really it is the HTTP and URI layers on the Internet Protocol. You don't have to do anything with HTML, JavaScript or CSS to be doing web work. I spend most of my time working on data sources exposed via web-services to a multitude of clients. Some of those clients use HTML/CSS/JavaScript while others are Cocoa or WPF/.NET powered. I happen to like HTML/CSS/JavaScript clients because they are easy to deploy and update. The PhD guys consider it web work because they are making use of the world wide web. Don't tar and feather "web dev" because you are stuck with debugging IE and Firefox issues in CSS/JavaScript. A lot of us get to do pretty damned cool web dev work.
leppie wrote:
Postbacks
That is ASP.NET shit, not web shit. I detest that style now.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
I agree completely, my first web apps were C via the CGI and occasionaly a shell script. My latest web app at home is a C# driven web control using the HtmlWriter. Javascript is at a minimum, perhaps 4 functions.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Simon Stevens wrote:
I get to analyse and decide on the best platform.
But if you 'hate all web work,' how valid can your analysis be?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Just like the impartial and fair MicroSoft bashers? :)
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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I've been developing windows applications for 10 years. I've noticed nearly all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer". I'm starting to wonder if its time I gave up my c++ mfc/c# win forms stuff and got over to web development... Do people also see this trend? Are people on here in the same situation? Some places have referred to backend web developer. A backend web developer is basically a developer isn't it?
Definitely. For enterprises etc. it makes much more sense doing a web app that gives zero-hassle deployment and much easier updates. We are also beginning to see classic desktop apps going to the Web. It'll all pretty much end up on the net - we're just waiting for a true coherent web development paradigm that can take it to the new level completely, and also for better bandwidth for the masses. But it's where it is gonna end up. Web development doesn't need to be bad. I agree that much of the front end development can be annoying because we need so many disparate technologies to make a great web UI. But the tools are growing and evolving all the time. Also much of the backend development is basically just classic development. Ideally your backend should be able to work with whatever front end you have - be it a web site or desktop app. That way you can also hook up some services to parts of the back end, and consume that from a desktop app if you need that, etc. Also in many places you need to analyze the great amount of data that web sites usually generate - so in some places there's also some work to be done in what might be called collective intelligence which have really taken off thanks to the webs (Amazon is a great example of this). So web dev isn't just web dev.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand -
leppie wrote:
Working on algorithms in C that are for web-projects, is not web work. Do any of those PhDs ever have to do any of the above mentioned list?
You seem to be saying that "web" is a client-side thing when really it is the HTTP and URI layers on the Internet Protocol. You don't have to do anything with HTML, JavaScript or CSS to be doing web work. I spend most of my time working on data sources exposed via web-services to a multitude of clients. Some of those clients use HTML/CSS/JavaScript while others are Cocoa or WPF/.NET powered. I happen to like HTML/CSS/JavaScript clients because they are easy to deploy and update. The PhD guys consider it web work because they are making use of the world wide web. Don't tar and feather "web dev" because you are stuck with debugging IE and Firefox issues in CSS/JavaScript. A lot of us get to do pretty damned cool web dev work.
leppie wrote:
Postbacks
That is ASP.NET shit, not web shit. I detest that style now.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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I dont care what you call it, I dont wanna do it! I am not a web-developer, then why am I being used to make web front ends?
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)Then get a frikkin job you are happy with. 8 years ago I wasn't complaining "they're making me do desktop apps, I hates it!" I was quitting my desktop app job and starting on web-dev. You are smart enough. The IT job market is spankingly good. There are still 5 people not connected to the internet who need your software...
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
-
Just like the impartial and fair MicroSoft bashers? :)
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
Most of them have used Windows for a decade at least. They bash it cause they have to use it.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.