Microsoft .NET
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Venkatraman wrote: how the enterprises going to look at .NET? I had a long email thread going with some of the ppl at MS here (South Africa) on this type of topic. My take on it: Microsoft must stop spoon-feeding the developers. I think the tools that MS has (.NET included) are brilliant, it's just that the majority of MS devs are not as good. I see this as being one of the biggest differences between MS & J2EE. There is a lot of perception in SA that J2EE is for enterprise and MS is for desktop/exchange. Although it sounds bizarre, I associate J2EE dev. with planning, analysis,testing, etc... and Microsoft dev. with slapping some code together and throwing it at a client. Again, this is my perception of the developers that use MS tools and not the Jugernaut itself. (hi, Bill :rolleyes: ) Cheers, Simon "Sign up for a chance to be among the first to experience the wrath of the gods.", Microsoft's home page (24/06/2002)
SimonS wrote: the tools that MS has (.NET included) are brilliant, it's just that the majority of MS devs are not as good An excellent point. No doubt VB is probably to blame for such people. Don't get me wrong, VB is an excellent tool and in the hands of good developers extremely good (incidentally, I started programming Windows with VB 2.0, so I'm definitely not anti-VB), but it definitely does enable people to do things without really understanding why. In the same vein, I've noticed people developing dynamic websites with little understanding of underlying principles -- like the way HTTP works, and thus why certain things are impossible. I also agree that J2EE encourages a full stage of planning and design etc. However, I'm sure there are many people who've been taught Java as a result of it taking a hold in enterprises, that won't have had the same experience as the more established J2EE developer, and so I'm going to play devil's advocate and argue that the same problem that befalls MS developers could well also be a valid point in the J2EE world (just to a different degree ;)
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Venkatraman wrote: how the enterprises going to look at .NET? I had a long email thread going with some of the ppl at MS here (South Africa) on this type of topic. My take on it: Microsoft must stop spoon-feeding the developers. I think the tools that MS has (.NET included) are brilliant, it's just that the majority of MS devs are not as good. I see this as being one of the biggest differences between MS & J2EE. There is a lot of perception in SA that J2EE is for enterprise and MS is for desktop/exchange. Although it sounds bizarre, I associate J2EE dev. with planning, analysis,testing, etc... and Microsoft dev. with slapping some code together and throwing it at a client. Again, this is my perception of the developers that use MS tools and not the Jugernaut itself. (hi, Bill :rolleyes: ) Cheers, Simon "Sign up for a chance to be among the first to experience the wrath of the gods.", Microsoft's home page (24/06/2002)
SimonS wrote: it's just that the majority of MS devs are not as good. :omg: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Folks It’s been quite some time after the release of .NET framework. It has several interesting aspects. Can .NET attain the height of J2EE? My question is how the enterprises going to look at .NET? Best Regards Venkatraman Kalyanam Chennai - India You are not an idiot till you open your lips (Anonymous)
A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface. In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] and they don't seem to be bothered with endless command line compiles and stuff. On the other hand for serious enterprise level .NET development VS.NET is a *must* for *most* people. If you remove VS.NET then the .NET SDK by itself does not seem anywhere near J2EE. I am not saying that you can't do anything without VS.NET. In fact till recently I only had the SDK with me [am m india you see]. It's just that if you now take VS.NET away from me I'd be as useful as a squirrel. I took about 5 days for my N-Track software [my VC++.NET competition entry]. If I didn't have VS.NET I'd have taken two weeks. Though this is really a bad comparison because all the GUI parts were written with MFC and MFC comes only with VS6 or VS.NET. But if I had to code complete Windows Forms apps without VS.NET it'd have taken me a long while. But you got my point I hope. Just my point of view of course. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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SimonS wrote: it's just that the majority of MS devs are not as good. :omg: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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I'm not an enterprise, but a spare time developer. Despite this, here are my thoughts. 1) When I've looked at J2EE its appeared far too complicated, this is not the syntax of Java itself, but the infrastructure that J2EE implies. It looked to me like it required an awful lot of planning to get anything implemented. This could just be me coming from a Windows app development background (and traditional ASP development). In contrast, .NET seems a lot more supportive. There's nothing forcing you a particular way, allowing you a lot more freedom. For example, you may be building a site that needs to keep an audit trail of requests/responses etc. You could get it to write via. an event log, or fire off messages to a service running on a different machine which enters them into a DB etc. So from my point of view (as a developer) there is immediately much more I can do. 2) The classic language argument. J2EE requires you use Java, with .NET you can use any language that can compile to MSIL. You can have different teams working on the same system, your existing ASP web team can produce the UI using VB.NET, and leave the 'hardcore' data access and business logic to the legions of C++ types. As more languages become supported, you could have engineers developing bits in Fortran that previously would require a much more extensive port. To me this makes a lot of sense, .NET offers far more than Java does! However, you are restricted (at present) to the Windows platform. AFAIK Microsoft are not pro-actively porting the runtime to other O/Ses, its up to other developers (like the Mono project). What is good, is that MS don't appear to be dragging their heels and hiding information. I would imagine that from an enterprise point-of-view its still a little too early for anything 'big'. Web services are certainly being touted, but I would imagine there will be a fair amount of time dedicated to their use internally. Once they've had good response there, they'll find there way outside of the organisation. There's a fair amount of R+D to be done into how web services (and .NET as a whole) can be exploited to the max. In the end, I don't imagine many organisations will be changing their stance. It will take a lot for a non-MS shop to switch from J2EE to .NET, and I suspect that existing MS developers will really take to .NET. I could be wrong, but my thoughts.
Paul Ingles wrote: When I've looked at J2EE its appeared far too complicated, this is not the syntax of Java itself, but the infrastructure that J2EE implies. I think you are possibly confusing breadth of application for complexity. It is possible to write great systems/applications and systems using only a small subset of the J2EE architecture. For example, you could write a fully-featured web-based application using just JSPs and Servlets. You don't necessarily have to use EJBs at all. EJBs just provide another method of achieving the same thing. Even so, EJBs themselves can be remarkably simple to write as well, it depends on the system/application. Paul Ingles wrote: The classic language argument. J2EE requires you use Java, with .NET you can use any language that can compile to MSIL. You can have different teams working on the same system, your existing ASP web team can produce the UI using VB.NET, and leave the 'hardcore' data access and business logic to the legions of C++ types. I've never undestood this as a real benefit. I would rather have platform/OS independence over language independence any day. I see the fact that the VB and C++ languages have relative advantages and disadvantages as a problem to be overcome and I think MS agreed with me, hence the development of C#. Surely having everyone using one language is better for any project than having various specialists working in their preferred languages. Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use :) Paul Ingles wrote: However, you are restricted (at present) to the Windows platform. Exactly! J2EE can run on *any* platform/OS. I can write some Java on my WinNT box right now, compile it, copy it to my UNIX machine and run it. My enterprise clients can be any platform, usually Windows but my company can still justify keeping its legacy systems based on AIX because all my enterprise software will happily sit in any given application server sitting on any given platform including an IBM RS6000 running AIX. One last thing: J2EE is effectively free. Right now you can develop EJBs, JSPs, Servlets, Applets, etc. using a text editor or free download of JBuilder. Then you can install your EJBs to a fully featured and free application server such as JBOSS and away you go :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather
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A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface. In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] and they don't seem to be bothered with endless command line compiles and stuff. On the other hand for serious enterprise level .NET development VS.NET is a *must* for *most* people. If you remove VS.NET then the .NET SDK by itself does not seem anywhere near J2EE. I am not saying that you can't do anything without VS.NET. In fact till recently I only had the SDK with me [am m india you see]. It's just that if you now take VS.NET away from me I'd be as useful as a squirrel. I took about 5 days for my N-Track software [my VC++.NET competition entry]. If I didn't have VS.NET I'd have taken two weeks. Though this is really a bad comparison because all the GUI parts were written with MFC and MFC comes only with VS6 or VS.NET. But if I had to code complete Windows Forms apps without VS.NET it'd have taken me a long while. But you got my point I hope. Just my point of view of course. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface Sun provides a free Forte for Java Community edition which is a pretty full featured IDE. There is also a free version of JBuilder IIRC. Nishant S wrote: In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] What!:wtf:! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface. In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] and they don't seem to be bothered with endless command line compiles and stuff. On the other hand for serious enterprise level .NET development VS.NET is a *must* for *most* people. If you remove VS.NET then the .NET SDK by itself does not seem anywhere near J2EE. I am not saying that you can't do anything without VS.NET. In fact till recently I only had the SDK with me [am m india you see]. It's just that if you now take VS.NET away from me I'd be as useful as a squirrel. I took about 5 days for my N-Track software [my VC++.NET competition entry]. If I didn't have VS.NET I'd have taken two weeks. Though this is really a bad comparison because all the GUI parts were written with MFC and MFC comes only with VS6 or VS.NET. But if I had to code complete Windows Forms apps without VS.NET it'd have taken me a long while. But you got my point I hope. Just my point of view of course. Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Yes this just goes to show how important tools are. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders *sigh*
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Hmmm. Interesting logic. Let's say that I belong to a small tribe, an obscure race of people in the jungle with only 1000 people in our entire culture. What would your reaction be if I said that there were far more inferior Indians than people of my culture, because you have millions of people in your country and I only have 1000? I realize that this is all just troll bait to begin with, but the implication, subtle or not, is that MS developers are in general inferior to JSEE developers. And that's about as silly as my contrived example. A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Paul Ingles wrote: When I've looked at J2EE its appeared far too complicated, this is not the syntax of Java itself, but the infrastructure that J2EE implies. I think you are possibly confusing breadth of application for complexity. It is possible to write great systems/applications and systems using only a small subset of the J2EE architecture. For example, you could write a fully-featured web-based application using just JSPs and Servlets. You don't necessarily have to use EJBs at all. EJBs just provide another method of achieving the same thing. Even so, EJBs themselves can be remarkably simple to write as well, it depends on the system/application. Paul Ingles wrote: The classic language argument. J2EE requires you use Java, with .NET you can use any language that can compile to MSIL. You can have different teams working on the same system, your existing ASP web team can produce the UI using VB.NET, and leave the 'hardcore' data access and business logic to the legions of C++ types. I've never undestood this as a real benefit. I would rather have platform/OS independence over language independence any day. I see the fact that the VB and C++ languages have relative advantages and disadvantages as a problem to be overcome and I think MS agreed with me, hence the development of C#. Surely having everyone using one language is better for any project than having various specialists working in their preferred languages. Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use :) Paul Ingles wrote: However, you are restricted (at present) to the Windows platform. Exactly! J2EE can run on *any* platform/OS. I can write some Java on my WinNT box right now, compile it, copy it to my UNIX machine and run it. My enterprise clients can be any platform, usually Windows but my company can still justify keeping its legacy systems based on AIX because all my enterprise software will happily sit in any given application server sitting on any given platform including an IBM RS6000 running AIX. One last thing: J2EE is effectively free. Right now you can develop EJBs, JSPs, Servlets, Applets, etc. using a text editor or free download of JBuilder. Then you can install your EJBs to a fully featured and free application server such as JBOSS and away you go :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather
All excellent points, as I said, I've never really used J2EE so it was only my first impressions I was going with. phykell wrote: I've never undestood this as a real benefit. I would rather have platform/OS independence over language independence any day I agree that platform and OS independence are important (and probably moreso than the ability to use different languages). However, assuming that .NET is not going to be used to sway people across from Java, its a really great thing to have, and one that I would think is going to have a great impact on how quickly applications can be developed. Take Paul Watson's entry into the MC++ as an example. phykell wrote: J2EE is effectively free. Right now you can develop EJBs, JSPs, Servlets, Applets, etc. using a text editor or free download of JBuilder You can still download the SDK for free, and the C# (and I think the VB) compilers are free, along with the ASP.NET ISAPI filter etc. So, .NET is effectively free also, of course you need to have the Windows O/S which you could make the point you have to pay for. As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows, so is it not fair to say that the fact its MS is possibly over-played by the media in making .NET seem expensive?
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] LOL :-) Kannan
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All excellent points, as I said, I've never really used J2EE so it was only my first impressions I was going with. phykell wrote: I've never undestood this as a real benefit. I would rather have platform/OS independence over language independence any day I agree that platform and OS independence are important (and probably moreso than the ability to use different languages). However, assuming that .NET is not going to be used to sway people across from Java, its a really great thing to have, and one that I would think is going to have a great impact on how quickly applications can be developed. Take Paul Watson's entry into the MC++ as an example. phykell wrote: J2EE is effectively free. Right now you can develop EJBs, JSPs, Servlets, Applets, etc. using a text editor or free download of JBuilder You can still download the SDK for free, and the C# (and I think the VB) compilers are free, along with the ASP.NET ISAPI filter etc. So, .NET is effectively free also, of course you need to have the Windows O/S which you could make the point you have to pay for. As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows, so is it not fair to say that the fact its MS is possibly over-played by the media in making .NET seem expensive?
Paul Ingles wrote: However, assuming that .NET is not going to be used to sway people across from Java, its a really great thing to have, and one that I would think is going to have a great impact on how quickly applications can be developed. Agreed, it's just that language independence is often used as an argument against J2EE. The fact is that VB.NET and C# are different to the original VB and certainly to C++. Sure, migration for those programmers may be eased by language independence but I consider this to be a small benefit compared to all the other benefits which J2EE (and .NET) offer. I see all .NET developers settling on a single language eventually, C#. Paul Ingles wrote: As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows... That's my particular clients. They may also have PDAs and even RS6000 workstations. Anyway, as an enterprise developer and technical architect, I have no problems specifying Windows on the client to my company's client. Specifying Windows on the server side is (as they say) "a different kettle of fish". :) Paul Ingles wrote: As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows, so is it not fair to say that the fact its MS is possibly over-played by the media in making .NET seem expensive? I agree that development may be free, but roll-out and commercial deployment certainly isn't. Currently, you can deploy a fully-functional, commercial system using JBOSS (or others) for absolutely nothing. There's a huge selection of open-source tools available to the developer including fully-featured IDEs and XML-based build tools. Furthermore, you don't need some hugely powerful Intel-based server to run your app server on and you don't need a hugely powerful development PC either. There are app servers, and dev tools which will run speedily on the lowest spec hardware. As an example, my dev machine on my current project is a P2/233 with 96MB RAM. My dev server which runs happily is a similar spec and happily serves multiple connections! I guess it's always difficult to discuss which is better on a technical level, .NET or J2EE, because they are both great infrastructures compared with what we've had previously. Ultimately, it depends on what your client/employer "wants" or more likely, "will accept" :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Folks It’s been quite some time after the release of .NET framework. It has several interesting aspects. Can .NET attain the height of J2EE? My question is how the enterprises going to look at .NET? Best Regards Venkatraman Kalyanam Chennai - India You are not an idiot till you open your lips (Anonymous)
I think at least a little of it depends on when Windows .NET server ever comes out. Just my two cents, but it seems that if I were running servers, I'd rather have one that has all the .NET stuff built in, and is designed to utilize .NET, than to have the .NET components plastered on to a 2000 box. Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
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Hmmm. Interesting logic. Let's say that I belong to a small tribe, an obscure race of people in the jungle with only 1000 people in our entire culture. What would your reaction be if I said that there were far more inferior Indians than people of my culture, because you have millions of people in your country and I only have 1000? I realize that this is all just troll bait to begin with, but the implication, subtle or not, is that MS developers are in general inferior to JSEE developers. And that's about as silly as my contrived example. A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Hey, that's what I said! ... 'Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use' "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] See, now that's just mean - I keep trying to get a VB programming friend of mine to look in on the Code Project. What's he going to think when he sees this sort of thing? (assuming he can find the power switch on the computer - only joking) :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Hey, that's what I said! ... 'Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use' "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
phykell wrote: Hey, that's what I said! ... :-O Oops... Indeed you did, and much more eloquently than I! :-D Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I'm relatively sure that he meant statistically, e.g. a percentage. evilpen dot net :: gpg public key (ascii-armored)
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Nishant S wrote: assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders *sigh*
Paul Watson wrote: *sigh* :laugh: Don't be feeling that way, Paul... I like VB better, too, though mainly because I have so little time to learn and practice, and VB doesn't require much to get started. A quick and dirty utility I may need only once can be banged out in VB in an hour, while doing the same in VC would take me two weeks of alternating between searching through endless docs for what I need and trying out different code until it works cleanly. "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Nishant S wrote: A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface Sun provides a free Forte for Java Community edition which is a pretty full featured IDE. There is also a free version of JBuilder IIRC. Nishant S wrote: In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] What!:wtf:! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: What!! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? They'd better dump both Ultraedit and Emacs and use VIM - the best freely available editor on earth! ;P;P;P
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: What!! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? They'd better dump both Ultraedit and Emacs and use VIM - the best freely available editor on earth! ;P;P;P
Haim Yulzari wrote: ;P;P;P What's happened to the smilies? :omg::omg::omg: