What does .NET mean for you?
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Hey all, There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". So what exactly is it about the new IDE, the new and updated versions of MFC and ATL, C#, ADO.NET etc that interests/annoys/excites or bores you? To me, it's a better platform for Code Project. No more VBScript, no more hassles with COM components, a faster site and a more manageable codebase. It's also a better IDE (a HUGE improvement IMHO); a new language that fills the void after the Sun vs MS hassles; improved ATL and MFC and a compiler that picks up more errors and tells you about them in a way that now makes sense. There is also another distributable run-time. It's certainly not going to fit on a 1.44 floppy, and what happens when v1.01, v1.2, v2.0...come out? There is the concern that there may not be a huge take-up of client side .NET, the confusion with implementing the security model in your apps. So I want to know what your thoughts on .NET (the whole thing, not just C#) are. For those who don't like it, can you tell us what it is you don't like, and for those with good experiences, please share them! cheers, Chris Maunder
Well, for me .Net means a number of things. 1/ A super sexy looking IDE ( I don't deny it ) which unfortunately is also VB user friendly, i.e. the whole thing looks like the VB ide and as a result I couldn't find a jolly thing, and when I did I hated a lot of the VBesque changes. 2/ A new language that seeks to protect me from the power of C++, on the basis that M$ claims such things are too hard. And lots of illogical syntax changes just to make it even harder for C++ programmers. 3/ A new CLR language to try to do what Java didn't, apparently because M$ can do it better, but more likely because Sun won their lawsuit and M$ needed to do something with the J++ code. 4/ From the sounds of it, a GREAT way to put together web centred stuff, and a rolling evangelism campaign that fails to consider that some of us are not inextricably tied to the web, nor does every piece of software revolve around it. 5/ A couple of new things in MFC ( all I've seen documented is an HTML Edit control and the new bitmap loading stuff ), which concern me greatly on the basis that they load GIF's, but to my knowledge using Microsoft's supplied components does not stop you from having to pay Unisys licence fees. At the least there is enough grey area surrounding this that I deliberately remove all GIF support from anything we release here. 6/ An amazing amount of hype for something that has yet to be released. I wouldn't say I'll *never* use C#, but it's certainly not suited for what we do here, and I'm glad I have the opportunity to wait until the dust settles and I can choose based on it having BEEN accepted in the marketplace, rather than bust a gut just in case it does, and learn to live without pointers ( unthinkable ) along the way. And that's just for starters. The very thought of garbage collection makes me shudder. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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Hey all, There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". So what exactly is it about the new IDE, the new and updated versions of MFC and ATL, C#, ADO.NET etc that interests/annoys/excites or bores you? To me, it's a better platform for Code Project. No more VBScript, no more hassles with COM components, a faster site and a more manageable codebase. It's also a better IDE (a HUGE improvement IMHO); a new language that fills the void after the Sun vs MS hassles; improved ATL and MFC and a compiler that picks up more errors and tells you about them in a way that now makes sense. There is also another distributable run-time. It's certainly not going to fit on a 1.44 floppy, and what happens when v1.01, v1.2, v2.0...come out? There is the concern that there may not be a huge take-up of client side .NET, the confusion with implementing the security model in your apps. So I want to know what your thoughts on .NET (the whole thing, not just C#) are. For those who don't like it, can you tell us what it is you don't like, and for those with good experiences, please share them! cheers, Chris Maunder
My limited experience with .NET has been to have a look at c# and what it can offer to old fashion windows programming. I decided to try and port one of my Java programs to c# and was impressed with the extra functionality c# provides in creating userdefined components over Java. The delegate system for creating Events seems a very intuitive approach for event assignment. Not being able to have a pointer to a function is one of Java's descrepancies. One thing that Java has which c# might like to add to its libraries is the Layout Managers. I'm currently creating my own to make porting from java to c# easier. Another hitch I've found which is probably just my lack of knowledge is getting the KeyCodes from KeyEvents. It seems that not all the keys on the keyboard are listed in the KeyCode documentation (the slash "/" was the one I was looking for) The distribuatable runtime is what concerns me the most. I'm not quite sure how it works, but if its anything like sun Java's counterpart, it makes distribution of the program that little bit harder. I prefer giving a program to the customer and all they have to know how to do is run the program and use it. Asking them to install a runtime is a bit much for a lot of people. Although the benefits of the .NET architecture seem awesome. Giving programming teams the option for individuals to program in any language they like and still being able to mesh all the parts together seems great for teams. Me not having to learn COM any more is a great advantage. (It does look a bit daunting to the uninitiated, trust me.) ASP.NET offers huge advanatages in time saving, I'm hoping this doesnt lead to lazy programmers. With autovalidation of form elements and a whole host of new controls, for example the Table controls (sorry cant remember the name of the specific one) save the programmer from re-inventing the wheel every time they start a new app. All in all I think .NET is great - Any one know how much it costs to buy Visual Studio 7 in Australia? .NET looks like it will be the future of Computing for many reasons.:) (a bit out of context - anyone know if there are additional compatablitlity issues with RDS for ASP other than must use IE4 upwards?):confused:
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Well, for me .Net means a number of things. 1/ A super sexy looking IDE ( I don't deny it ) which unfortunately is also VB user friendly, i.e. the whole thing looks like the VB ide and as a result I couldn't find a jolly thing, and when I did I hated a lot of the VBesque changes. 2/ A new language that seeks to protect me from the power of C++, on the basis that M$ claims such things are too hard. And lots of illogical syntax changes just to make it even harder for C++ programmers. 3/ A new CLR language to try to do what Java didn't, apparently because M$ can do it better, but more likely because Sun won their lawsuit and M$ needed to do something with the J++ code. 4/ From the sounds of it, a GREAT way to put together web centred stuff, and a rolling evangelism campaign that fails to consider that some of us are not inextricably tied to the web, nor does every piece of software revolve around it. 5/ A couple of new things in MFC ( all I've seen documented is an HTML Edit control and the new bitmap loading stuff ), which concern me greatly on the basis that they load GIF's, but to my knowledge using Microsoft's supplied components does not stop you from having to pay Unisys licence fees. At the least there is enough grey area surrounding this that I deliberately remove all GIF support from anything we release here. 6/ An amazing amount of hype for something that has yet to be released. I wouldn't say I'll *never* use C#, but it's certainly not suited for what we do here, and I'm glad I have the opportunity to wait until the dust settles and I can choose based on it having BEEN accepted in the marketplace, rather than bust a gut just in case it does, and learn to live without pointers ( unthinkable ) along the way. And that's just for starters. The very thought of garbage collection makes me shudder. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
I can see your point from having vast c++ experience, The .Net runtime would seem a step backwards from the power c++ gives to programmers. Probably also an annoyance seen as though you've put so many hours becoming proficent in c++. I think the trend the computing world is heading in is towards getting a lot more programmers up and capabale of producing software in a quicker amount of time in both learning and implementation aspects. The .NET architecture helps both of these points by abstracting away from complicated code you have come to know and love. I do not think you have to worry though, c++ is still the more powerful language as long as you can keep up with the pace of programmers using simpler languages like Java and c# you still should earn more money, in my opinion anyway. Was wondering where you managed to find a copy of the Visual Studio 7 IDE. I'd like to have a look at this as well.:-O
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I can see your point from having vast c++ experience, The .Net runtime would seem a step backwards from the power c++ gives to programmers. Probably also an annoyance seen as though you've put so many hours becoming proficent in c++. I think the trend the computing world is heading in is towards getting a lot more programmers up and capabale of producing software in a quicker amount of time in both learning and implementation aspects. The .NET architecture helps both of these points by abstracting away from complicated code you have come to know and love. I do not think you have to worry though, c++ is still the more powerful language as long as you can keep up with the pace of programmers using simpler languages like Java and c# you still should earn more money, in my opinion anyway. Was wondering where you managed to find a copy of the Visual Studio 7 IDE. I'd like to have a look at this as well.:-O
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Hey all, There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". So what exactly is it about the new IDE, the new and updated versions of MFC and ATL, C#, ADO.NET etc that interests/annoys/excites or bores you? To me, it's a better platform for Code Project. No more VBScript, no more hassles with COM components, a faster site and a more manageable codebase. It's also a better IDE (a HUGE improvement IMHO); a new language that fills the void after the Sun vs MS hassles; improved ATL and MFC and a compiler that picks up more errors and tells you about them in a way that now makes sense. There is also another distributable run-time. It's certainly not going to fit on a 1.44 floppy, and what happens when v1.01, v1.2, v2.0...come out? There is the concern that there may not be a huge take-up of client side .NET, the confusion with implementing the security model in your apps. So I want to know what your thoughts on .NET (the whole thing, not just C#) are. For those who don't like it, can you tell us what it is you don't like, and for those with good experiences, please share them! cheers, Chris Maunder
I think that .Net was devised to solve a very wide range of problems that put Microsoft in a poor position going forward. 1. TCO The cost to maintain a Windows desktop computer in an enterprise setting was making Windows look like a very expensive proposition for the big buyers of Windows licenses. Total Cost of Ownership is not something that we usually fret about, but trust me big companies do. Solutions like Network appliances and web-centric computing dramatically lower this cost, and big companies are embracing this philosophy en-masse. .Net allows Microsoft to truly deliver on their Windows DNA goals. Have a web centric model if that's what you want, but also allow "rich" clients to offer a much higher level of function. I think the assemblies architecture in .Net, and the robust security model will go a long way to reducing TCO, and improving network administration issues. 2. Programming efficiency. I'm not the one to debate this, but I believe the evidence is pretty overwhelming that Java is a highly productive language. Sure there's shortcomings, but I've talked to scores and scores of dev teams that think they're 4-5x as productive under Java as they were under C++. Fewer gotchas, less chance for bugs. Obviously MS isn't going to roll over and give the "platform" away to Java when it's totally within their capability to create an even better solution, within a very short timeframe. Enter C#. Who cares if C# == (Microsoft*) Java. Not me. Competition is good. Further, due to the complexity things like COM development have only been embraced by a handful of developers. .Net lowers the barrier to true code reuse so dramatically it's phenomenal. The new era of application servers requires that current developers be capable of authoring robust components. C# and .Net deliver on this. 3. The OS is becoming a commodity. To be able to maneuver, Microsoft needed to be able to take their franchise wherever they needed. Windows XP, Linux, AS400, whatever. By abstracting the platform, they've done that. Enterprise customers with big iron investments must now truly evaluate a Microsoft offering on its merits. And despite all the religious issues, big companies go for value and Microsoft has consistently delivered. 4. Breakup protection. Just a wild thought. So what happens if Microsoft really is broken up. Current plans call for two companies, call 'em Windows Corp (OS), and Microsoft (everything else). By creating .Net, "Microsoft" would still be in control o
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I can see your point from having vast c++ experience, The .Net runtime would seem a step backwards from the power c++ gives to programmers. Probably also an annoyance seen as though you've put so many hours becoming proficent in c++. I think the trend the computing world is heading in is towards getting a lot more programmers up and capabale of producing software in a quicker amount of time in both learning and implementation aspects. The .NET architecture helps both of these points by abstracting away from complicated code you have come to know and love. I do not think you have to worry though, c++ is still the more powerful language as long as you can keep up with the pace of programmers using simpler languages like Java and c# you still should earn more money, in my opinion anyway. Was wondering where you managed to find a copy of the Visual Studio 7 IDE. I'd like to have a look at this as well.:-O
I dunno that I'd have said my experience was *vast*, but thank you :) This is part of my fear though - an easier IDE will not lead to people understanding things like design, I fear a world were a lot of software is written by monkeys for bananas. I got a look because my work subscribes to MSDN, sorry. :( Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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Hey all, There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". So what exactly is it about the new IDE, the new and updated versions of MFC and ATL, C#, ADO.NET etc that interests/annoys/excites or bores you? To me, it's a better platform for Code Project. No more VBScript, no more hassles with COM components, a faster site and a more manageable codebase. It's also a better IDE (a HUGE improvement IMHO); a new language that fills the void after the Sun vs MS hassles; improved ATL and MFC and a compiler that picks up more errors and tells you about them in a way that now makes sense. There is also another distributable run-time. It's certainly not going to fit on a 1.44 floppy, and what happens when v1.01, v1.2, v2.0...come out? There is the concern that there may not be a huge take-up of client side .NET, the confusion with implementing the security model in your apps. So I want to know what your thoughts on .NET (the whole thing, not just C#) are. For those who don't like it, can you tell us what it is you don't like, and for those with good experiences, please share them! cheers, Chris Maunder
There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". You mean this isn't the case? ;) But seriously, I personally don't see myself diving head-first into .NET for two big reasons:
- I have little interest in writing Internet- or web-based apps.
- I have even less interest in learning yet another class library.
#1 is just my preference, but #2 might be a stumbling block for many people. I started with the SDK, then learned tons about MFC. It took me a long time to do anything serious with ATL because it worked totally differently from MFC, and I felt I would be better served continuing on with what I knew rather than go through the haze and learning curve of ATL. As for the IDE... well, I bet many of you know that I'm a "grumpy old man" when it comes to UI. I ain't changing now. :) My feelings would best be described as: :eek: The VC 6 IDE + WndTabs is perfect IMNSHO. VS.NET looks and feels clunky with those weird docking/hiding windows. And the menus and toolbars... ugh, could MS have made them any uglier? They look totally washed out and it's hard to find the buttons I need. (Do Whistler and Office XP look the same?) The big selling point of .NET is ease of writing new apps. While that's an admirable goal, I agree with another comment posted earlier that it may be hiding too much and keeping the programmer too much in the dark. I've been trying to make an argument to back up this opinion for about 10 minutes now, but I can never make it sound good. So I'll just leave it at that as MHO. --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers.
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Well, for me .Net means a number of things. 1/ A super sexy looking IDE ( I don't deny it ) which unfortunately is also VB user friendly, i.e. the whole thing looks like the VB ide and as a result I couldn't find a jolly thing, and when I did I hated a lot of the VBesque changes. 2/ A new language that seeks to protect me from the power of C++, on the basis that M$ claims such things are too hard. And lots of illogical syntax changes just to make it even harder for C++ programmers. 3/ A new CLR language to try to do what Java didn't, apparently because M$ can do it better, but more likely because Sun won their lawsuit and M$ needed to do something with the J++ code. 4/ From the sounds of it, a GREAT way to put together web centred stuff, and a rolling evangelism campaign that fails to consider that some of us are not inextricably tied to the web, nor does every piece of software revolve around it. 5/ A couple of new things in MFC ( all I've seen documented is an HTML Edit control and the new bitmap loading stuff ), which concern me greatly on the basis that they load GIF's, but to my knowledge using Microsoft's supplied components does not stop you from having to pay Unisys licence fees. At the least there is enough grey area surrounding this that I deliberately remove all GIF support from anything we release here. 6/ An amazing amount of hype for something that has yet to be released. I wouldn't say I'll *never* use C#, but it's certainly not suited for what we do here, and I'm glad I have the opportunity to wait until the dust settles and I can choose based on it having BEEN accepted in the marketplace, rather than bust a gut just in case it does, and learn to live without pointers ( unthinkable ) along the way. And that's just for starters. The very thought of garbage collection makes me shudder. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
Ouch. Come on Christian, why hide your feelings? Tell us what you REALLY think ;) Seriously though, I have a few comments. 1) At first I didn't like the IDE either, but it's growing on me, and I do find it more productive. The ability to hide all the stuff I use and access it just by moving my mouse over it really gives me a lot of screen real-estate, and I abosolutely *LOVE* the tab groups. 2) C# is not .NET, though it does use .NET. C++ also targets .NET, and you can mix and match managed and unmanaged code in the same EXE, which means you can gain the benefits of managed code where you don't need native code, without sacrificing things like templates when you need them. This also ties into #3, in that now that MS is moving to Win64 and CE (er.. sorry "Windows Powered") is growing, you can port your code easier if it's written to .NET to begin with. .NET isn't just because MS lost their lawsuit. Hell, MS could care less about the lawsuit really. Sun never would have allowed them to do what they've done with .NET (pushing languages like C++ and VB into the VM, etc...) 5) Reading GIF files is royalty free. It's creating them that you have to pay the license for. 6) ;P My primary interest in .NET is for building GUI's. I've worked on projects where we used VB as the front end GUI, and I think .NET will work wonderfully for this, considerng that you can seamlessly connect VB, C#, managed and unmanaged C++ (not to mention the couple of dozen other .NET languages already out there), you can really gain some benefits.
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Ouch. Come on Christian, why hide your feelings? Tell us what you REALLY think ;) Seriously though, I have a few comments. 1) At first I didn't like the IDE either, but it's growing on me, and I do find it more productive. The ability to hide all the stuff I use and access it just by moving my mouse over it really gives me a lot of screen real-estate, and I abosolutely *LOVE* the tab groups. 2) C# is not .NET, though it does use .NET. C++ also targets .NET, and you can mix and match managed and unmanaged code in the same EXE, which means you can gain the benefits of managed code where you don't need native code, without sacrificing things like templates when you need them. This also ties into #3, in that now that MS is moving to Win64 and CE (er.. sorry "Windows Powered") is growing, you can port your code easier if it's written to .NET to begin with. .NET isn't just because MS lost their lawsuit. Hell, MS could care less about the lawsuit really. Sun never would have allowed them to do what they've done with .NET (pushing languages like C++ and VB into the VM, etc...) 5) Reading GIF files is royalty free. It's creating them that you have to pay the license for. 6) ;P My primary interest in .NET is for building GUI's. I've worked on projects where we used VB as the front end GUI, and I think .NET will work wonderfully for this, considerng that you can seamlessly connect VB, C#, managed and unmanaged C++ (not to mention the couple of dozen other .NET languages already out there), you can really gain some benefits.
Everyone always tells me I should assert myself more - I guess I might try that sometime.... Taking advantage of my self imposed right of reply: 1/ I admit to not giving the IDE terribly long to prove itself, so maybe I could grow to love it. I have two monitors, so I'm not low on screen real estate. 2 & 3/ Given that I work with 3D and 2D graphics, it's the idea of a CLR overall that scares me. I don't want another layer sitting between my code and the processor, slowing things down. The report I read said M$ AIM to have managed code run as fast as VB. This will be the zenith of their expectations, and it's not enough. 5/ Opinions vary as to what is and isn't covered by the Unisys patent, my motto is better safe than sorry. ( Also better not to encourage the format ) 6/ I would agree for this sort of thing it will make it a bit easier to use VB for RAD and C++/C# for back end, which I believe a lot of people do now with COM. I hope COM does not die before I find the time to learn it, but that is another story. I cringe when people extoll the benefits of .Net in allowing a team to work together in different languages, but I'd agree for situations that are already mixed language, it will probably be a good thing. This goes back to my original point - .Net is not an all embracing solution, it is good for the subset of development it is targeting, I have no doubt. M$ are not stupid, but they CAN find themselves focused on their vision of the universe and what it should be. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". You mean this isn't the case? ;) But seriously, I personally don't see myself diving head-first into .NET for two big reasons:
- I have little interest in writing Internet- or web-based apps.
- I have even less interest in learning yet another class library.
#1 is just my preference, but #2 might be a stumbling block for many people. I started with the SDK, then learned tons about MFC. It took me a long time to do anything serious with ATL because it worked totally differently from MFC, and I felt I would be better served continuing on with what I knew rather than go through the haze and learning curve of ATL. As for the IDE... well, I bet many of you know that I'm a "grumpy old man" when it comes to UI. I ain't changing now. :) My feelings would best be described as: :eek: The VC 6 IDE + WndTabs is perfect IMNSHO. VS.NET looks and feels clunky with those weird docking/hiding windows. And the menus and toolbars... ugh, could MS have made them any uglier? They look totally washed out and it's hard to find the buttons I need. (Do Whistler and Office XP look the same?) The big selling point of .NET is ease of writing new apps. While that's an admirable goal, I agree with another comment posted earlier that it may be hiding too much and keeping the programmer too much in the dark. I've been trying to make an argument to back up this opinion for about 10 minutes now, but I can never make it sound good. So I'll just leave it at that as MHO. --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers.
The VC 6 IDE + WndTabs is perfect IMNSHO. I almost totally agree with you - although the latest version seems a bit screwy to me ( although the tech support guys tell me otherwise :) ), I still couldn't live without my Visual Assist... Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". You mean this isn't the case? ;) But seriously, I personally don't see myself diving head-first into .NET for two big reasons:
- I have little interest in writing Internet- or web-based apps.
- I have even less interest in learning yet another class library.
#1 is just my preference, but #2 might be a stumbling block for many people. I started with the SDK, then learned tons about MFC. It took me a long time to do anything serious with ATL because it worked totally differently from MFC, and I felt I would be better served continuing on with what I knew rather than go through the haze and learning curve of ATL. As for the IDE... well, I bet many of you know that I'm a "grumpy old man" when it comes to UI. I ain't changing now. :) My feelings would best be described as: :eek: The VC 6 IDE + WndTabs is perfect IMNSHO. VS.NET looks and feels clunky with those weird docking/hiding windows. And the menus and toolbars... ugh, could MS have made them any uglier? They look totally washed out and it's hard to find the buttons I need. (Do Whistler and Office XP look the same?) The big selling point of .NET is ease of writing new apps. While that's an admirable goal, I agree with another comment posted earlier that it may be hiding too much and keeping the programmer too much in the dark. I've been trying to make an argument to back up this opinion for about 10 minutes now, but I can never make it sound good. So I'll just leave it at that as MHO. --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers.
The new namespaces are certainly a head full but I don't think there is anywhere near the pain associated with getting a handle on ATL, COM or even MFC. The dynamic help and intellisense takes a lot of this pain away. I totally agree with you on the 'washed out' look of the new UI. I always thought that making your users guess which bits of the screen were mouse activateable (a new word!) was a Bad Thing. With the increasing move to the flat pastel look it's sometimes hard to find that elusive toolbar button or pulldown. I'm sure we'll look back in horror at pre-XP UI's and wonder what on Earth we were thinking about. Then again, all they really have to do is use a bold and chunky font in the dialogs and hey presto - Windows 3.1! The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers. I only just worked out what your sig means :) cheers, Chris Maunder
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Ouch. Come on Christian, why hide your feelings? Tell us what you REALLY think ;) Seriously though, I have a few comments. 1) At first I didn't like the IDE either, but it's growing on me, and I do find it more productive. The ability to hide all the stuff I use and access it just by moving my mouse over it really gives me a lot of screen real-estate, and I abosolutely *LOVE* the tab groups. 2) C# is not .NET, though it does use .NET. C++ also targets .NET, and you can mix and match managed and unmanaged code in the same EXE, which means you can gain the benefits of managed code where you don't need native code, without sacrificing things like templates when you need them. This also ties into #3, in that now that MS is moving to Win64 and CE (er.. sorry "Windows Powered") is growing, you can port your code easier if it's written to .NET to begin with. .NET isn't just because MS lost their lawsuit. Hell, MS could care less about the lawsuit really. Sun never would have allowed them to do what they've done with .NET (pushing languages like C++ and VB into the VM, etc...) 5) Reading GIF files is royalty free. It's creating them that you have to pay the license for. 6) ;P My primary interest in .NET is for building GUI's. I've worked on projects where we used VB as the front end GUI, and I think .NET will work wonderfully for this, considerng that you can seamlessly connect VB, C#, managed and unmanaged C++ (not to mention the couple of dozen other .NET languages already out there), you can really gain some benefits.
considerng that you can seamlessly connect VB, C#, managed and unmanaged C++ (not to mention the couple of dozen other .NET languages already out there), you can really gain some benefits Yup! I've worked on a ton of projects where we had to mix FORTRAN, C and C++ and I still have nightmares about trying to get it all to work, and get some decent debugging happening. Plus we had a suite of stuff written in FORTRAN that was simply too painful to call from C++. It would be cool to rewrite some of that stuff and simply inherit some C++ classes from FORTRAN. Mmmmm... cheers, Chris Maunder
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I dunno that I'd have said my experience was *vast*, but thank you :) This is part of my fear though - an easier IDE will not lead to people understanding things like design, I fear a world were a lot of software is written by monkeys for bananas. I got a look because my work subscribes to MSDN, sorry. :( Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
'...fear a world were a lot of software is written by monkeys for bananas...'. you get scared by monkeys ? for bananas ? Sorry mate, but you're so funny. Which type of software do you code ? Ducks ? Mice ? Do you think you 'understand things like design' better than a monkey ? Sure ? Simpler IDE and simpler stuff are designed to let you concentrate on the things you have to develop. Otherwise if you prefer the hard way you can still code assembly ;P
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Everyone always tells me I should assert myself more - I guess I might try that sometime.... Taking advantage of my self imposed right of reply: 1/ I admit to not giving the IDE terribly long to prove itself, so maybe I could grow to love it. I have two monitors, so I'm not low on screen real estate. 2 & 3/ Given that I work with 3D and 2D graphics, it's the idea of a CLR overall that scares me. I don't want another layer sitting between my code and the processor, slowing things down. The report I read said M$ AIM to have managed code run as fast as VB. This will be the zenith of their expectations, and it's not enough. 5/ Opinions vary as to what is and isn't covered by the Unisys patent, my motto is better safe than sorry. ( Also better not to encourage the format ) 6/ I would agree for this sort of thing it will make it a bit easier to use VB for RAD and C++/C# for back end, which I believe a lot of people do now with COM. I hope COM does not die before I find the time to learn it, but that is another story. I cringe when people extoll the benefits of .Net in allowing a team to work together in different languages, but I'd agree for situations that are already mixed language, it will probably be a good thing. This goes back to my original point - .Net is not an all embracing solution, it is good for the subset of development it is targeting, I have no doubt. M$ are not stupid, but they CAN find themselves focused on their vision of the universe and what it should be. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
'...The report I read said M$ AIM to have managed code run as fast as VB...'. Which report ? Managed code produces IL (Intermediate Language), then when a function is called a stub is called checking is the function has already been compiled. If not a JIT compiler compiles the code for the target platform the function is running on (Win32, Win64, WinCe, Linux...). Next time the function is called is called directly in native code so you have a penalty just the first time but this gives you a change to 'write once, run anywere' as Java does. So this tec. is not new and it's not the major strategy in the .NET. Web Services are the core, WSDL, UDDI and SOAP, that's why is called .NET. I 've moved myself to Java because for certain aspects is a mature technology and it's a reality now, but I'm sure in the future (not before the second half of 2002) I will manage .NET
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Hey all, There seems to be the perception that MS is pushing .NET down our throats and that we better get with the program or, or...well, "or else". So what exactly is it about the new IDE, the new and updated versions of MFC and ATL, C#, ADO.NET etc that interests/annoys/excites or bores you? To me, it's a better platform for Code Project. No more VBScript, no more hassles with COM components, a faster site and a more manageable codebase. It's also a better IDE (a HUGE improvement IMHO); a new language that fills the void after the Sun vs MS hassles; improved ATL and MFC and a compiler that picks up more errors and tells you about them in a way that now makes sense. There is also another distributable run-time. It's certainly not going to fit on a 1.44 floppy, and what happens when v1.01, v1.2, v2.0...come out? There is the concern that there may not be a huge take-up of client side .NET, the confusion with implementing the security model in your apps. So I want to know what your thoughts on .NET (the whole thing, not just C#) are. For those who don't like it, can you tell us what it is you don't like, and for those with good experiences, please share them! cheers, Chris Maunder
Apart from hype, apart from tons of goodies, .NET seems to be paving the way for a commercial implementation of IP (Intentional Programming). Don't mistake me, I believe that .NET is great and does make sense economically, but the long-awaited breakthrough in software development will come from something like IP.
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'...fear a world were a lot of software is written by monkeys for bananas...'. you get scared by monkeys ? for bananas ? Sorry mate, but you're so funny. Which type of software do you code ? Ducks ? Mice ? Do you think you 'understand things like design' better than a monkey ? Sure ? Simpler IDE and simpler stuff are designed to let you concentrate on the things you have to develop. Otherwise if you prefer the hard way you can still code assembly ;P
Clearly English is not your first language, or you would have understood me, and understood that asking me if I understand design better than a monkey is more than a little insulting... My point is that a simpler IDE ( you obviously have not SEEN .Net ) and 'simpler stuff to design' ( i.e. remove powerful stuff like pointers, on the basis that they are 'too hard' ( that's basically what M$ are saying )) both cripple a serious developer by removing tools of his trade, AND lower the barrier of entry WITHOUT enforcing things like good design. It becomes easier and easier for people to be bad programmers and come out with something that works, sort of. I don't doubt that good progammers will write good code in C#, I think though that it will be a continuation of what VB has given us - a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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'...The report I read said M$ AIM to have managed code run as fast as VB...'. Which report ? Managed code produces IL (Intermediate Language), then when a function is called a stub is called checking is the function has already been compiled. If not a JIT compiler compiles the code for the target platform the function is running on (Win32, Win64, WinCe, Linux...). Next time the function is called is called directly in native code so you have a penalty just the first time but this gives you a change to 'write once, run anywere' as Java does. So this tec. is not new and it's not the major strategy in the .NET. Web Services are the core, WSDL, UDDI and SOAP, that's why is called .NET. I 've moved myself to Java because for certain aspects is a mature technology and it's a reality now, but I'm sure in the future (not before the second half of 2002) I will manage .NET
It was an article from M$ themselves, in Visual C++ Developers Journal from memory, a mag that is fawning over C# in particular if ever I saw one. I covered the fact that web services are the core in my original post, another reason the whole thing is right now of no use to me. If you're using Java, I have no doubt you will end up using .Net and good luck to you. I am talking about it's usefulness in my market, and I reiterate that no CLR is going to be transparent and therefore when I am looking at rewriting GDI functions in assembler to gain speed, I'm not going to add another layer to my code to lose it needlessly. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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Clearly English is not your first language, or you would have understood me, and understood that asking me if I understand design better than a monkey is more than a little insulting... My point is that a simpler IDE ( you obviously have not SEEN .Net ) and 'simpler stuff to design' ( i.e. remove powerful stuff like pointers, on the basis that they are 'too hard' ( that's basically what M$ are saying )) both cripple a serious developer by removing tools of his trade, AND lower the barrier of entry WITHOUT enforcing things like good design. It becomes easier and easier for people to be bad programmers and come out with something that works, sort of. I don't doubt that good progammers will write good code in C#, I think though that it will be a continuation of what VB has given us - a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
'...Clearly English is not your first language, or you would have understood me, and understood that asking me if I understand design better than a monkey is more than a little insulting......' I've clearly touched some hurting point of you... ooopppsss '...you obviously have not SEEN .Net ) and 'simpler stuff to design' ( i.e. remove powerful stuff like pointers, on the basis that they are 'too hard'...' YES, I did clearly touched it, oooppsss C++ is still there in the .NET and you can continue to use it if you like it. Do you understand my poor English now ? '...It becomes easier and easier for people to be bad programmers and come out with something that works, sort of. I don't doubt that good progammers will write good code in C#, I think though that it will be a continuation of what VB has given us - a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs...' Well, I don't personally use VB but one thing is sure : it's the most popular language on the earth and if you don't like 'a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs' you can simply stay away from them so you won't be scared anymore ;P
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It was an article from M$ themselves, in Visual C++ Developers Journal from memory, a mag that is fawning over C# in particular if ever I saw one. I covered the fact that web services are the core in my original post, another reason the whole thing is right now of no use to me. If you're using Java, I have no doubt you will end up using .Net and good luck to you. I am talking about it's usefulness in my market, and I reiterate that no CLR is going to be transparent and therefore when I am looking at rewriting GDI functions in assembler to gain speed, I'm not going to add another layer to my code to lose it needlessly. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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'...Clearly English is not your first language, or you would have understood me, and understood that asking me if I understand design better than a monkey is more than a little insulting......' I've clearly touched some hurting point of you... ooopppsss '...you obviously have not SEEN .Net ) and 'simpler stuff to design' ( i.e. remove powerful stuff like pointers, on the basis that they are 'too hard'...' YES, I did clearly touched it, oooppsss C++ is still there in the .NET and you can continue to use it if you like it. Do you understand my poor English now ? '...It becomes easier and easier for people to be bad programmers and come out with something that works, sort of. I don't doubt that good progammers will write good code in C#, I think though that it will be a continuation of what VB has given us - a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs...' Well, I don't personally use VB but one thing is sure : it's the most popular language on the earth and if you don't like 'a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs' you can simply stay away from them so you won't be scared anymore ;P
'...Clearly English is not your first language, or you would have understood me, and understood that asking me if I understand design better than a monkey is more than a little insulting......' I've clearly touched some hurting point of you... ooopppsss Sorry, you expected to be offensive and get no reaction ? '...you obviously have not SEEN .Net ) and 'simpler stuff to design' ( i.e. remove powerful stuff like pointers, on the basis that they are 'too hard'...' YES, I did clearly touched it, oooppsss I don't know what you mean. a/ .Net is NOT a simpler IDE, it MAY prove to be more productive but it is very cluttered and ugly to someone used to VC rather than VB. b/ Microsoft s OFFICIAL blurb is that C# is as easy as VB and as powerful as C++ with stuff like pointers romoved and stuff like garbage collection put in to make it easier. C++ is still there in the .NET and you can continue to use it if you like it. Do you understand my poor English now ? Yeah, yeah - I can use it, I can even mix it was Cb, but it still comes down to the CLR, the extra layer between me and the processor. '...It becomes easier and easier for people to be bad programmers and come out with something that works, sort of. I don't doubt that good progammers will write good code in C#, I think though that it will be a continuation of what VB has given us - a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs...' Well, I don't personally use VB but one thing is sure : it's the most popular language on the earth and if you don't like 'a million websites showing off a million poorly written programs' you can simply stay away from them so you won't be scared anymore ;P I guess you still don't understand me, or you are being obtuse. I'm concerned that M$ is endorsing people getting easy to use tools that do not emphasise skill, I am not scared that this is already the case, I just don't go there, as you say. This is the real test of VB - not how many programs ARE there, but how many do you USE ? Same will be true of .Net. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.