This seems like a reasonable observation
-
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz, so there's gotta be something to it. It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else. I love it when people look at a resume with 20 years of diverse and mission critical experience, and then ask you for the definition of polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall). While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper. Shockingly, the only thing businesses care about is getting the job done. That said, I love the freedom of our profession, where cowboys, geeks, eggheads and other assorted freaks are all free to sit at the table, as long as they can deliver the goods. You don't find that in the accounting profession. And I believe that this open invitation to all comers is a tremendous boost to innovation. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz
Christopher Duncan wrote:
It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper.
That article is not about valuing academia above all else nor is it an indulgence in intellectual arrogance. Furthermore if you believe that the people who launched this industry didn't understand how hashtables and stacks worked I believe you are sadly mistaken. Comparing those pioneers to the lame lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy" borders on the absurd.
led mike
-
Christopher Duncan wrote:
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz
Christopher Duncan wrote:
It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper.
That article is not about valuing academia above all else nor is it an indulgence in intellectual arrogance. Furthermore if you believe that the people who launched this industry didn't understand how hashtables and stacks worked I believe you are sadly mistaken. Comparing those pioneers to the lame lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy" borders on the absurd.
led mike
led mike wrote:
lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy"
Sorry, not what I meant to communicate. The clueless will always be the clueless. Cowboy coding is an entirely different critter. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
-
His font is to small :D Actually you can see here that font is wack http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1152/ugiy4.jpg[^] I thought I was going blind with double vision. As a smart developer he should know this!
Todd Smith
-
And it speaks to the issue raised here numerous times about the quality of questions/developers on CP http://www.codethinked.com/post/2008/07/Being-Smart-Does-Not-a-Good-Developer-Make.aspx[^] Standard "Hope it's not a repost" disclaimer.
led mike
:shrug: A friend of mine, an old auto mechanic, got out of the business just over a year ago for health reasons. He's back in, but not as a greasemonkey - turns out, the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands, a flashlight, and a shop full of diagnostics tools. If the computer diagnostics don't apply or are incorrect, then they take a guess and call it a day. The result is a lot of cars misdiagnosed and sold off cheap - he now works for a used car lot, buying up misdiagnosed cars at auction and fixing the real problem... An old neighbor of mine used to work at the local steel mill. One day he noticed that the workers on a crew tasked with shaping a part... some sort of flange, if i recall correctly, made to fit a certain sort of pipe. Cut, match, cut again, hammer on it a bit, wrestle it into place. He watched for a bit, took some measurements, and drew up an exact pattern for cuts and bends, turning a two-hour process into a twenty minute one. When his boss found out, he got moved to a different job - the union wouldn't stand for such behavior... The consulting company we use promises developers with a minimum of two years of experience. The average level of skill is no better than that of the interns we hire still in university working toward their degree. I'm starting to suspect two years of college counts as that experience... I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
-
Interesting read. Similar in some ways to my blog post (http://geekswithblogs.net/sdorman/archive/2007/06/29/Programming-for-the-masses.aspx[^]) about a year ago that was a response to a run on "How do I create an array?" type questions here on CP.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
Scott Dorman wrote:
"How do I create an array?"
An array creates you! :mad:
-
I agree completely. The Wild Wide Web is saturated with code cowboys and astronaut architects.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
astronaut architects
Where?
-
led mike wrote:
lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy"
Sorry, not what I meant to communicate. The clueless will always be the clueless. Cowboy coding is an entirely different critter. :)
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
-
leppie wrote:
astronaut architects
Where?
-
:shrug: A friend of mine, an old auto mechanic, got out of the business just over a year ago for health reasons. He's back in, but not as a greasemonkey - turns out, the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands, a flashlight, and a shop full of diagnostics tools. If the computer diagnostics don't apply or are incorrect, then they take a guess and call it a day. The result is a lot of cars misdiagnosed and sold off cheap - he now works for a used car lot, buying up misdiagnosed cars at auction and fixing the real problem... An old neighbor of mine used to work at the local steel mill. One day he noticed that the workers on a crew tasked with shaping a part... some sort of flange, if i recall correctly, made to fit a certain sort of pipe. Cut, match, cut again, hammer on it a bit, wrestle it into place. He watched for a bit, took some measurements, and drew up an exact pattern for cuts and bends, turning a two-hour process into a twenty minute one. When his boss found out, he got moved to a different job - the union wouldn't stand for such behavior... The consulting company we use promises developers with a minimum of two years of experience. The average level of skill is no better than that of the interns we hire still in university working toward their degree. I'm starting to suspect two years of college counts as that experience... I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands
Fuck, I can even do that! Serious! On cars!
-
:shrug: A friend of mine, an old auto mechanic, got out of the business just over a year ago for health reasons. He's back in, but not as a greasemonkey - turns out, the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands, a flashlight, and a shop full of diagnostics tools. If the computer diagnostics don't apply or are incorrect, then they take a guess and call it a day. The result is a lot of cars misdiagnosed and sold off cheap - he now works for a used car lot, buying up misdiagnosed cars at auction and fixing the real problem... An old neighbor of mine used to work at the local steel mill. One day he noticed that the workers on a crew tasked with shaping a part... some sort of flange, if i recall correctly, made to fit a certain sort of pipe. Cut, match, cut again, hammer on it a bit, wrestle it into place. He watched for a bit, took some measurements, and drew up an exact pattern for cuts and bends, turning a two-hour process into a twenty minute one. When his boss found out, he got moved to a different job - the union wouldn't stand for such behavior... The consulting company we use promises developers with a minimum of two years of experience. The average level of skill is no better than that of the interns we hire still in university working toward their degree. I'm starting to suspect two years of college counts as that experience... I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
I can live with that. I will finally be recognised as someone more than the labourer on the floor.
-
:shrug: A friend of mine, an old auto mechanic, got out of the business just over a year ago for health reasons. He's back in, but not as a greasemonkey - turns out, the majority of mechanics working today can't accurately diagnose car problems with both hands, a flashlight, and a shop full of diagnostics tools. If the computer diagnostics don't apply or are incorrect, then they take a guess and call it a day. The result is a lot of cars misdiagnosed and sold off cheap - he now works for a used car lot, buying up misdiagnosed cars at auction and fixing the real problem... An old neighbor of mine used to work at the local steel mill. One day he noticed that the workers on a crew tasked with shaping a part... some sort of flange, if i recall correctly, made to fit a certain sort of pipe. Cut, match, cut again, hammer on it a bit, wrestle it into place. He watched for a bit, took some measurements, and drew up an exact pattern for cuts and bends, turning a two-hour process into a twenty minute one. When his boss found out, he got moved to a different job - the union wouldn't stand for such behavior... The consulting company we use promises developers with a minimum of two years of experience. The average level of skill is no better than that of the interns we hire still in university working toward their degree. I'm starting to suspect two years of college counts as that experience... I think we can see where we're headed. The design of tools (*cough* ASP.NET *cough*) and the processes for development are all converging on a system where low-paid, low-skill coders will get the majority of the work. Same as every other industry...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
-
I certainly don't disagree with any of that and thanks, as usual I enjoy reading your material. Since you :shrugged: (try to put that in an emoticon), i'll assume you don't disagree with the observation. :)
led mike
-
leppie wrote:
astronaut architects
Where?
Look up in the clouds, actually beyond, there they scheme their view of the world and how things should be done in their happy place, with no clue whats going on down on earth.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
Look up in the clouds, actually beyond, there they scheme their view of the world and how things should be done in their happy place, with no clue whats going on down on earth.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)Guys, I meant there are really no major toms on the boards here, only cowboys at a push.;P
-
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz, so there's gotta be something to it. It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else. I love it when people look at a resume with 20 years of diverse and mission critical experience, and then ask you for the definition of polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall). While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper. Shockingly, the only thing businesses care about is getting the job done. That said, I love the freedom of our profession, where cowboys, geeks, eggheads and other assorted freaks are all free to sit at the table, as long as they can deliver the goods. You don't find that in the accounting profession. And I believe that this open invitation to all comers is a tremendous boost to innovation. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had to think alike.
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall).
I like the image that evokes. :-D So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks? ;)
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
-
Christopher Duncan wrote:
polymorphism (something to do with shape shifting parrots, as best I recall).
I like the image that evokes. :-D So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks? ;)
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
So, do you do a lot of sugar cubes? Or do you get by with just the flashbacks?
Just the latter, but at least I'm getting my money's worth! :-D
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
-
And it speaks to the issue raised here numerous times about the quality of questions/developers on CP http://www.codethinked.com/post/2008/07/Being-Smart-Does-Not-a-Good-Developer-Make.aspx[^] Standard "Hope it's not a repost" disclaimer.
led mike
Love the article, don't agree with the examples but fully agree with the theory. I qualified in C++, and worked in a Language called Dexterity, a 4th generation language that doesn't even allow you to define classes. I've switched to .Net about 2 years ago and now am I'm one of the most effective developers in our company. I can't explain the difference between an interface and an abstract class (well not very clearly), but I deliver very effective solutions to very big customers using .Net. I'm not a brilliant developer either, and I'm not hugely intelligent, but I am very effective in delivering good solutions. I fully agree that developers have to "want to know more", and be eager to chase "more". In our company attitude (not arrogance) is more important than knowledge in interviews...
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
-
I agree completely. The Wild Wide Web is saturated with code cowboys and astronaut architects.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
I agree completely. The Wild Wide Web is saturated with code cowboys and astronaut architects.
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
Christopher Duncan wrote:
True enough, but cowboys and astronauts are what launched this biz
Christopher Duncan wrote:
It gets equally silly in the opposite direction, with people valuing academia above all else.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
While the cowboy programming mentality that lacks discipline certainly causes its own problems, those who indulge in intellectual arrogance fail to realize that the real world bears little resemblance to writing a term paper.
That article is not about valuing academia above all else nor is it an indulgence in intellectual arrogance. Furthermore if you believe that the people who launched this industry didn't understand how hashtables and stacks worked I believe you are sadly mistaken. Comparing those pioneers to the lame lazy new comers of today, that don't understand how anything works and couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, by labeling them both with the term "Cowboy" borders on the absurd.
led mike
If we are talking about the generality of commercial developers working in 'ordinary' businesses (i.e. not Google, et al), my experience (1963 - 2003) has been that once they had learned how to code in a language, they had no interest in the impact on performance of their coding choices, and no wish to learn new techniques. The 'Lame and Lazy' have always predominated, unfortunately.
Bob Emmett
