MS Interview
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Awesome, thank you for the advice!!
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein
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You know, if an interviewer played those kinds of stupid mind-games with me, I'd tell them to take their position, fold it until it's all sharp corners, and shove it up their a...
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]It sucks. I interned with MS and then later worked with them. Even then, someone you'd expect them to know more or less pretty well after interning for about 9 months they still go through the motions of the interview and the really stupid mind games. Back then I used to think they were cool and showed off creativity and smarts. By the time I applied to the last company, the Manager I was talking to thought he could play mind games and read into my words; after 10 minutes I told him to take things at face value because I'm waaaaaaaaaay past the whole psychobabble and mind games stage.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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ogryzek wrote:
If you don't know it offhand, but know where you can get the info in a hurry, say that
Like... Google?
..by posting a programming question in the lounge !
;-]
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OK, so I managed to score an interview in Redmond. Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process, what to expect, what to look out for, what would it be like if I got an offer?
only two letters away from being an asset
I took an interview with Microsoft a number of years ago and was very surprised by the childishness of it. At the time it was obvious that Microsoft had implemented a prepackaged method of interviewing candidates no matter what the position was. In my case it was for an application engineer. One of the first questions I was asked was, "Where do you hope to see yourself in 5 years?"... Wanting to end this nonsense quickly, I told the interviewer that I simply hoped to be still alive...
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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OK, so I managed to score an interview in Redmond. Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process, what to expect, what to look out for, what would it be like if I got an offer?
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
what to expect
Expect a long day, and be yourself.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
what to expect
Expect a long day, and be yourself.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
be yourself
Damn there goes that plan, was about to submit the travel request as Bill G :-D
only two letters away from being an asset
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You know, if an interviewer played those kinds of stupid mind-games with me, I'd tell them to take their position, fold it until it's all sharp corners, and shove it up their a...
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]Generally I ask one of those stupid questions in an interview. That would be my last question after going through the normal dialog. The reason I do it is I am not interested in the right/wrong answer. All I am interested is the candidates approach to the problem at hand. In fact if I get correct answer in the first trial I would ask follow up questions to probe the candidates mind. This question plays only a single role in whole process and by the time I get to this question I have pretty much made my mind about the candidate. The biggest lesson I learn from each candidate from this questions is that how well the candidate fits into the culture. It shows about the candidates ego, personality, imagination and thinking process.
Yusuf
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Wow, congratulations! Did you have a phone screen prior? :cool:
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process
From what I have read - You will have 5 interviews if you get through the whole process - 2 before lunch, one during lunch (be careful, it masquerades as just "having lunch" but it's another interview and if you blow it, you'll be escorted back to the HR bus), and 2 after lunch. If at any time before the 5th interview you get told your interviews are done, you blew it somewhere and will not be offered a position. If you get through all 5, apparently it's very likely you'll be offered a position (because each one gives a HIRE or NO HIRE assessment immediately, and the first NO HIRE will get you escorted to the door. So if you get to 5, you have only one more group to impress and the odds of doing that are better). Don't look for any rhyme or reason in why they may decide to escort you to the door. The process seems like they're looking for specific things, but really they're just doing what every other hiring manager does - hire the person who seems most like themselves the instant they walk in the door. Ok, ok, before I get the business from everyone here who does any hiring, studies have shown that something like 85% of hiring decisions are made in the first 2 seconds when you meet someone. Yes, 2 seconds. Read "Moving Mount Fuji" for more - it's pretty interesting, and its main thesis is built around the sort of puzzle-based, grueling interview process given by Microsoft and companies like it. The people giving those interviews are just as subjective and prone to whim as everyone else is. We go through the farce of actually giving a complete interview pretty much to reinforce the notion we conceive the instant the person walks through the door. Far less frequently does an interview result in you changing someone's mind about their first impression. It's not impossible, but unlikely. So what I'm getting at is, take it in stride, do the best you can, and don't feel badly if you don't get offered a position. Unless you screw up royally in a way you know you could have done better, there probably would have been nothing you could have done differently. More specific advice that I've seen offered by other applicants (yeah, I've been reading up pretty heavily on this lately): 1. Bring snack bars with you and put them in your pocket. Eat them between interviews. You need to keep
Interview process is well organized in the MS. There are some standard procedures, guidelines for interviewers and mandatory training before you allowed to be an interviewer. Loop takes one day. Starts and ends with recruiter. At morning recruiter instructs you about process. 5 interviews one hour each. One of them is a lunch interview. Interviewers exchange information about you in between and fill up report form available for limited amount of people. First question of the form: Hire/No Hire. Several paragraph of explanation your decision after it. If candidate get first tree "No Hire" he gos home after the lunch. After first 5 interviews there is one more -- bonus play. Usually a manager of two-tree levels up. Answer you get from recruiter. Typically in a week. Content of interview depends on the position and on the team. Stupid questions like "Why road hatches are round?" are discouraged now. Hiring of right people is the most vital task for any high tech company. The goal of interview is anything else but demonstrating how smart and funny the interviewer is. Expectation is that you would grow couple "levels" in the next 5 years so questions where you want to be your career are impotent. If you don't have potential to grow you don't fit for the position. There is no magic answer here. Its ok to not have a plan especially if you are a collage hire. You can instead ask an interviewer about career opportunities in the MS. Asking right questions about a group, company, development/shipping process is as impotent as answering questions. Show an interest in getting position and respect to yourself and to the company. In some way you are "selling" yourself. Be prepared to discuss your previous work experience; what you consider was success and challenge and how you deal with this challenge. Usually on each interview you have one problem. The good problem is not well defined. You need to work with the interviewer on "formalizing" the task. It would be a mistake to make an assumption and jump to white board for codding it without postulating your assumptions at least. In most tasks you need to find and code some algorithm. Usually it is easy to find n*n algorithm or one that requires additional memory (or stack) allocation. If this is the case it may be helpful to show your knowledge. If you stick you would be offered a hint. Hint is usually not a full answer so keep working. In codding you don't need to write a "production" code but need to take in account all conner cases and possibly inva
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Hey Mark, Well, I've been working for M$ for about 8 years now, and have been on the "other side" of the interview process. What I can say is answer honestly and talk through your thought process. Most of the "obscure" questions we ask is to understand how you think, how you break down problems, basically how you deal with ambiguity. I would say the most important trait in a successful M$ employee is dealing with ambiguity. I don't know what type of position you are interviewing for, but if it is coding related, again, just be honest. If you don't know it offhand, but know where you can get the info in a hurry, say that. We aren't looking for someone who knows every single syntax for every command ever written. We're looking for good solid people that have a personality, are willing to admit they are human. Then we hire them and force them to do super-human feats! Anyways, overall it's a great place to work. Feel free to send me a direct email if you have other questions. Good Luck, Randy
Wait, you work for Microsoft and use the tired "M$" slang. :confused: :doh:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Upon this disciple I'll build my new religion? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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OK, so I managed to score an interview in Redmond. Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process, what to expect, what to look out for, what would it be like if I got an offer?
only two letters away from being an asset
The MSDN JobsBlog website has some archived videos that do a walkthrough of what to expect the interview process to be like for development positions. It gives a good idea of what to expect in your interview. Best advice I can give is to bring your own water bottle to stay hydrated through the day and if you do well it will be a long day. Also, take some energy bars to keep up your energy level throughout the process. https://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/default.aspx[^]
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Wow, congratulations! Did you have a phone screen prior? :cool:
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process
From what I have read - You will have 5 interviews if you get through the whole process - 2 before lunch, one during lunch (be careful, it masquerades as just "having lunch" but it's another interview and if you blow it, you'll be escorted back to the HR bus), and 2 after lunch. If at any time before the 5th interview you get told your interviews are done, you blew it somewhere and will not be offered a position. If you get through all 5, apparently it's very likely you'll be offered a position (because each one gives a HIRE or NO HIRE assessment immediately, and the first NO HIRE will get you escorted to the door. So if you get to 5, you have only one more group to impress and the odds of doing that are better). Don't look for any rhyme or reason in why they may decide to escort you to the door. The process seems like they're looking for specific things, but really they're just doing what every other hiring manager does - hire the person who seems most like themselves the instant they walk in the door. Ok, ok, before I get the business from everyone here who does any hiring, studies have shown that something like 85% of hiring decisions are made in the first 2 seconds when you meet someone. Yes, 2 seconds. Read "Moving Mount Fuji" for more - it's pretty interesting, and its main thesis is built around the sort of puzzle-based, grueling interview process given by Microsoft and companies like it. The people giving those interviews are just as subjective and prone to whim as everyone else is. We go through the farce of actually giving a complete interview pretty much to reinforce the notion we conceive the instant the person walks through the door. Far less frequently does an interview result in you changing someone's mind about their first impression. It's not impossible, but unlikely. So what I'm getting at is, take it in stride, do the best you can, and don't feel badly if you don't get offered a position. Unless you screw up royally in a way you know you could have done better, there probably would have been nothing you could have done differently. More specific advice that I've seen offered by other applicants (yeah, I've been reading up pretty heavily on this lately): 1. Bring snack bars with you and put them in your pocket. Eat them between interviews. You need to keep
More stuff to add to this (been there done that): Regarding #4 above: Absolutely spot on. Unless you're applying for a position in the legal department or HR, "dress for success" doesn't "mean wear a suit", it means dress nicely, but don't go overboard. An open collar shirt (long or short sleeve) and dockers with decent shoes (not sneakers, save that for when you get hired) will be sufficient. 5. Relax. Relax. Relax. The interviews are to find out the following: a. Can you think on your feet or do you box yourself into one approach and stay locked there even if it's a dead end. b. How well do you interact with other people. Communication is vastly important. Today's Microsoft isn't the Microsoft of 20 years ago. Yes, demonstrating your skills is important, being able to communicate those skills is just as important. c. How comfortable are you in your own skin in a new situation. Don't go in with an attitude of "you asked me to interview so you need to impress me". Go in there confident but at the same time don't be over-confident. Remember, for every coder/tester that interviews, there are ten more who didn't but are just as good at what you do as you are, and and it's a good chance that at least one of them will probably be better. 6. When you're given a puzzle, ask as many questions up front as you can. If you reach a block, as more questions. Explain your solution as you are devising it. Not speaking while you're thinking during an interview can be seen negatively. 7. You will be asked "where do you see yourself in xx years?" Have a 5, 10 and 20 year set of goals answer already thought about that you can articulate clearly. 8. Light humor is okay, but definitely nothing that would be seen or could be taken by the most uptight of the PC crowd as offensive. Let the interviewer take the lead on any humorous situations. There will be times when you laugh, that's okay. 9. You may be asked about your hobbies, what you like to do in your "off time". 10. If you're offered a drink of water or soda by the upcomming interviewer, go with the water to keep your throat from drying out and keep your voice from cracking. You can take the cup of water with you to the interview. By the same token, don't use drinking the water as a delaying tactic while trying to think of an answer to the current question. 11. If you have a briefcase that you carry, put it by the side of the chair where you're sitting, opposite the door, but also don't forget to take it with you when you ar
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OK, so I managed to score an interview in Redmond. Anyone have advise (relevant, advise) on the process, what to expect, what to look out for, what would it be like if I got an offer?
only two letters away from being an asset
I would not survive without a spell checker; so I am not one to critique others. But one of the things that cause a negative impression of a candidate is the improper use of language or miss spellings. A reasonably high level of language skill is expected at a professional level since it demonstrates both attention to detail & general education level. With that said you might want to review the meanings of "advise" vs. "advice". Not trying to nitpick, just offering a “first impression” from reading your message in the context of job hunting. Good Luck
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I would not survive without a spell checker; so I am not one to critique others. But one of the things that cause a negative impression of a candidate is the improper use of language or miss spellings. A reasonably high level of language skill is expected at a professional level since it demonstrates both attention to detail & general education level. With that said you might want to review the meanings of "advise" vs. "advice". Not trying to nitpick, just offering a “first impression” from reading your message in the context of job hunting. Good Luck
Not trying to be nitpicky either, however, the context of the message was specially Microsoft interviews rather than general job hunting advice.
only two letters away from being an asset
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I took an interview with Microsoft a number of years ago and was very surprised by the childishness of it. At the time it was obvious that Microsoft had implemented a prepackaged method of interviewing candidates no matter what the position was. In my case it was for an application engineer. One of the first questions I was asked was, "Where do you hope to see yourself in 5 years?"... Wanting to end this nonsense quickly, I told the interviewer that I simply hoped to be still alive...
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
It wasn`t Microsoft, but I was asked that question and my answer, after a few seconds of pondering was "Well, in the best possible scenario, I`d be rich and retired in between 5 and 10 years." (I was 25 yrs old at the time.) Surprisingly, they hired me anyway, but I missed my retirement goal.
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Be prepared for the stupid questions masquerading as "we want to know how you think." And whatever you do, if asked what the best feature would be for Word, don't answer "a button to turn off all the automatic shit." (A friend did that on purpose.) As for an offer, be prepared to be low balled on salary (my brother.) Odds are they won't pay your move (if required.) [EDIT: Apparently, Microsoft has greatly improved the relocation package in the past few years.] I almost got an interview there--I fit the [obscure] job description exactly--but was given the brush off. I highly suspect it was an obligatory H1B job posting, which nobody but one person was supposed to actually match. I didn't really want to move to Seattle so it didn't bother me.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
modified on Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:33 PM
I work for MS, I'll put that up front - I just started March 08, graduated with my bachelors in Comp Sci in December 07. I scored an interview with both the HD DVD guys, and then the Mac BU, got offers for both, and picked one. If you get multiple offers, you don't get numbers on them - the Mac BU offer was in mountainview CA, HD DVD in Redmond - I was not told numbers, but I was told that the two offers were garaunted to be on the same skill level, and would compensate for the cost living for each region. I won't say which I picked, but I *will* say the offer was very good - I know for a fact I had the highest salary of all people who graduated in my class. Furthermore, (John Woodbury) MS pays the move completely - they pay for United to move you, if you want to fly out and have a car, they pay for it to be moved, they pay for you to fly to Redmond, they give you temp housing until you find permanent housing. If you want to drive to redmond, they pay you a certain amnt per mile. As for benefits, I think the only company that even comes close is Google, and I think MS is superior. As for advice, be prepared. Depending on the group, the format of the interviews varies; some do a panel, some just rotate you through different people. The interviews usually take a whole day, and include lunch. If you're going to be a coder, then be ready for code questions. They will try to challenge you, see how you reason it out. Don't do I what I did (and I still got offers for both interviews) and be silent. I stood at a white board and thought...I didn't talk out loud...they WANT to know what you think - so let them hear your thought process. Also, they tell you they don't care what you wear...I'd wear a suit anyway (I did). Finally, don't worry about impressing the guys here...rather, show them what you can do, have intelligent questions ready for them. This is as much a chance for MS to evaluate you, as it is a chance for you to evaluate us. Find out if you like it here (do sighseeing!) talk to the group, find out as much as possible. And lastly, enjoy it, and congrats on getting the interview. PS: I didn't think I'd get the job - my view was "Its MS, no chance in HELL I can get this"...I went in with low expectations, but high hopes. I was somewhat nervous, but confident in what I did. Now that I'm here, I'm proud to be at such an amazing company. I can't help but feel really good about making it into such an amazing company straight out of college - the people here are truly amazing, helpful and fri
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I work for MS, I'll put that up front - I just started March 08, graduated with my bachelors in Comp Sci in December 07. I scored an interview with both the HD DVD guys, and then the Mac BU, got offers for both, and picked one. If you get multiple offers, you don't get numbers on them - the Mac BU offer was in mountainview CA, HD DVD in Redmond - I was not told numbers, but I was told that the two offers were garaunted to be on the same skill level, and would compensate for the cost living for each region. I won't say which I picked, but I *will* say the offer was very good - I know for a fact I had the highest salary of all people who graduated in my class. Furthermore, (John Woodbury) MS pays the move completely - they pay for United to move you, if you want to fly out and have a car, they pay for it to be moved, they pay for you to fly to Redmond, they give you temp housing until you find permanent housing. If you want to drive to redmond, they pay you a certain amnt per mile. As for benefits, I think the only company that even comes close is Google, and I think MS is superior. As for advice, be prepared. Depending on the group, the format of the interviews varies; some do a panel, some just rotate you through different people. The interviews usually take a whole day, and include lunch. If you're going to be a coder, then be ready for code questions. They will try to challenge you, see how you reason it out. Don't do I what I did (and I still got offers for both interviews) and be silent. I stood at a white board and thought...I didn't talk out loud...they WANT to know what you think - so let them hear your thought process. Also, they tell you they don't care what you wear...I'd wear a suit anyway (I did). Finally, don't worry about impressing the guys here...rather, show them what you can do, have intelligent questions ready for them. This is as much a chance for MS to evaluate you, as it is a chance for you to evaluate us. Find out if you like it here (do sighseeing!) talk to the group, find out as much as possible. And lastly, enjoy it, and congrats on getting the interview. PS: I didn't think I'd get the job - my view was "Its MS, no chance in HELL I can get this"...I went in with low expectations, but high hopes. I was somewhat nervous, but confident in what I did. Now that I'm here, I'm proud to be at such an amazing company. I can't help but feel really good about making it into such an amazing company straight out of college - the people here are truly amazing, helpful and fri
rampantandroid wrote:
Furthermore, you're (John Woodbury) a bloody fool for talking about MS offers when you don't have a clue.
I do because I know many people who have been given offers and others who have turned them down. They don't move everyone [EDIT: nor did they always cover the full expenses of others.] Don't be an ass by assuming that your experience is reflective of everyone else's. (You may not have been given exact numbers, but people I know were given very exact numbers. Perhaps because they were senior engineers with families and weren't about to consider a position without every bit of information possible.) And the name is "Joe Woodbury". You can now take your foot out of your mouth. [EDIT 2: I must now remove my foot from my mouth and apologize to rampantandroid: according to some links rampantandroid had, Microsoft does appear to have become more generous in the past few years with moving expenses. That is good to see.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
modified on Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:28 PM
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rampantandroid wrote:
Furthermore, you're (John Woodbury) a bloody fool for talking about MS offers when you don't have a clue.
I do because I know many people who have been given offers and others who have turned them down. They don't move everyone [EDIT: nor did they always cover the full expenses of others.] Don't be an ass by assuming that your experience is reflective of everyone else's. (You may not have been given exact numbers, but people I know were given very exact numbers. Perhaps because they were senior engineers with families and weren't about to consider a position without every bit of information possible.) And the name is "Joe Woodbury". You can now take your foot out of your mouth. [EDIT 2: I must now remove my foot from my mouth and apologize to rampantandroid: according to some links rampantandroid had, Microsoft does appear to have become more generous in the past few years with moving expenses. That is good to see.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
modified on Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:28 PM
Sorry for getting the name wrong; misread while quickly typing. MS benefits state (I'd link, but I don't have the doc anymore, though it may be on the MS career site) that you get moved, so long as you currently live X amount away from MS. That is about the only case in which they won't move you - or if the group you are moving into does not have the bugdet to move you. In all other cases, you will be moved. People outside the US also get greater benefits, with a longer period of time to stay in temp housing. So, I should correct myself: 99.8% of the time, the move is payed for. I know my experience is very reflective of other people's, because I've talked to those other people. The standard package includes a move, 1 month of temp housing, assistance finding housing and so forth.
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rampantandroid wrote:
Furthermore, you're (John Woodbury) a bloody fool for talking about MS offers when you don't have a clue.
I do because I know many people who have been given offers and others who have turned them down. They don't move everyone [EDIT: nor did they always cover the full expenses of others.] Don't be an ass by assuming that your experience is reflective of everyone else's. (You may not have been given exact numbers, but people I know were given very exact numbers. Perhaps because they were senior engineers with families and weren't about to consider a position without every bit of information possible.) And the name is "Joe Woodbury". You can now take your foot out of your mouth. [EDIT 2: I must now remove my foot from my mouth and apologize to rampantandroid: according to some links rampantandroid had, Microsoft does appear to have become more generous in the past few years with moving expenses. That is good to see.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
modified on Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:28 PM
I'll back up what I am saying with links; the doc I had seems to be available to new hires only. http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2005/12/06/moving-on.aspx[^] http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2004/12/08/relocation-relocation-relocation.aspx[^] More info can be found if you search. (I'm not posting this to prove Joe Woodbury wrong, rather I am posting for general info of the OP. Its useful to know that you don't have to worry about the expense of moving.)
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I'll back up what I am saying with links; the doc I had seems to be available to new hires only. http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2005/12/06/moving-on.aspx[^] http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2004/12/08/relocation-relocation-relocation.aspx[^] More info can be found if you search. (I'm not posting this to prove Joe Woodbury wrong, rather I am posting for general info of the OP. Its useful to know that you don't have to worry about the expense of moving.)
Please note the comment in the second article: "I want to stress that this is a gross generalization," and "Also, there are groups and positions outside of the core technical roles that may not have the same relocation budget." Nevertheless, I will stand corrected since it appears that Microsoft has changed their approach in the last few years.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Please note the comment in the second article: "I want to stress that this is a gross generalization," and "Also, there are groups and positions outside of the core technical roles that may not have the same relocation budget." Nevertheless, I will stand corrected since it appears that Microsoft has changed their approach in the last few years.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
As I posted the articles, I noticed the date on the first one as 2005, and wondered if you were referring to people who recieved offers before 2005 (but who knows what the policy was before 2005, it might have been the same, and only got posted in 2005...)
modified on Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:40 PM