Surviving overtime
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Phannon wrote:
due to incompitent planning by the project manager
Has the project manager been fired? I would stipulate that.
Phannon wrote:
our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time.
So, you're going to put in an extra 2 hours a day, assuming you'll: 1) actually get the lump sum 2) actually get done on time That's a losing situation. The company should pay you in advance for your extra work. I know it sounds ridiculous, but realistically, you will be putting in all this extra effort and something will happen to make you miss your deadline, or as someone else commented already, the company will find some excuse not to pay you. Remember, the company is making you assume all the risk. Why not have them take on some of the risk, and pay you up front? Why should you and your team take on the risk? My 2c. Which I know won't fly. Marc
Nah I get what your saying. It's been formally written and signed that most of it is guarenteed and the rest is based on an on-time delivery. The lump is a % of annual salary and split to 2 portions from there.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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Phannon wrote:
due to incompitent planning by the project manager
Has the project manager been fired? I would stipulate that.
Phannon wrote:
our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time.
So, you're going to put in an extra 2 hours a day, assuming you'll: 1) actually get the lump sum 2) actually get done on time That's a losing situation. The company should pay you in advance for your extra work. I know it sounds ridiculous, but realistically, you will be putting in all this extra effort and something will happen to make you miss your deadline, or as someone else commented already, the company will find some excuse not to pay you. Remember, the company is making you assume all the risk. Why not have them take on some of the risk, and pay you up front? Why should you and your team take on the risk? My 2c. Which I know won't fly. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Has the project manager been fired?
Should be, if not, at least have a negative performance mark in the personnel file.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Phannon wrote:
due to incompitent planning by the project manager
Has the project manager been fired? I would stipulate that.
Phannon wrote:
our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time.
So, you're going to put in an extra 2 hours a day, assuming you'll: 1) actually get the lump sum 2) actually get done on time That's a losing situation. The company should pay you in advance for your extra work. I know it sounds ridiculous, but realistically, you will be putting in all this extra effort and something will happen to make you miss your deadline, or as someone else commented already, the company will find some excuse not to pay you. Remember, the company is making you assume all the risk. Why not have them take on some of the risk, and pay you up front? Why should you and your team take on the risk? My 2c. Which I know won't fly. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Has the project manager been fired? I would stipulate that.
Has that ever happened? I've seen plenty of PMs overcommit but I've never once seen anyone but the dev and support teams take the lumps.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Turn in your resignation? Those kinds of hours usually cause people to get burned out and leave a lot of companies unless its a project you really enjoy working on I remember my first job was extremely amazing and I would work a few extra hours each day and some on the weekend because it was so much fun. The idea that they're asking you to work an extra 2hrs per day and stipulating that the pay is then dependent on finishing the project is a sham. If the project doesn't get finished even when you put in all those extra work hours who's fault is that? You do work you should get paid.
Todd Smith
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Monster Lo-Carb! :omg:
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You need to get used to it in the IT development trade. Projects almost always run late and developers have to stick in the extra hours to make up for time. Where I work (a FTSE 100 company), they take a "risk-based" approach to testing, which means that not all the code gets tested, just those areas deemed to be of high risk (for one reason or another). I wish we, as developers, could take the same approach but I doubt if our business teams would like to see chunks of features de-scoped "because we've run out of time...". No doubt someone will tell us this happens where they work. Just ensure the Coke machine is well-stocked. And ever tried starting earlier in the morning? I regularly sit down at my work's office desk around 07:30 yet leave after 18:00 :-(
DrWheetos wrote:
Just ensure the Coke machine
That's not legal. You shouldn't mention using coke for long stints on a public board. :suss:
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
It's been proven over and over again that people are less alert and make more mistakes when they work too long. There's a reason why we've settled on about 7-8 hours per day and 35-40 hours per week - any longer and you make mistakes. You'll probably end up with many more bugs in the software and ship later if you do overtime.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
How clearly defined is what needs to be "done" on time, exactly? Don't think I've ever worked on anything where new requirements would keep coming along constantly - you don't want to be working longer and longer days as the customer keeps thinking of more and more things or changing their mind what they want, etc.
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How clearly defined is what needs to be "done" on time, exactly? Don't think I've ever worked on anything where new requirements would keep coming along constantly - you don't want to be working longer and longer days as the customer keeps thinking of more and more things or changing their mind what they want, etc.
Dave Parker wrote:
How clearly defined is what needs to be "done" on time, exactly?
Excellent point. When management starts requiring overtime is when developers stop doing favors. We called it the "j" word. "Since you're going to be working on that module anyway, can't you just add this little, tiny thing?" "No. p*ss off." :mad: But I've never gotten overtime pay, either.
Someone's gotta be the last to know, but why is it always me?
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How clearly defined is what needs to be "done" on time, exactly? Don't think I've ever worked on anything where new requirements would keep coming along constantly - you don't want to be working longer and longer days as the customer keeps thinking of more and more things or changing their mind what they want, etc.
Dave Parker wrote:
Don't think I've ever worked on anything where new requirements would keep coming along
Good God - you haven't, this is my life. Ridiculiously short deadlines, constantly changing requirements, most of my work is prototyping, and the prototypes seem to end up as production apps. However I knew that before I started, the boss knows that I will deliver as fast as possible and will ignore any deadline set. In 4 years (9 deliverables) we have only missed 1 deadline. One app has been rewritten 3 times as new methedology is defined, all of them have undergone major changes post production. Working 10hrs a day should be sustainable almost indefinately. Pleanty of excercise and as much sleep as is reasonable. Make sure you get to keep you weekends though.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Get used to it - this is common in your industry and mine (engineering). As the old adage reminds us, there's never enough time or budget to do a job right, but there's planty to do it over again. There are three classes of employee:
- Hourly - you get paid overtime
- Salaried Non-Exempt - you get a base salary, but still get overtime pay if needed.
- Salaried Exempt - you're fucked. You get your usual base rate and no compensation for the extra hours you put in.
Make sure that you always work as one of the first two classes, because management ineptitude is not going to go away in my lifetime or yours.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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You need to get used to it in the IT development trade. Projects almost always run late and developers have to stick in the extra hours to make up for time. Where I work (a FTSE 100 company), they take a "risk-based" approach to testing, which means that not all the code gets tested, just those areas deemed to be of high risk (for one reason or another). I wish we, as developers, could take the same approach but I doubt if our business teams would like to see chunks of features de-scoped "because we've run out of time...". No doubt someone will tell us this happens where they work. Just ensure the Coke machine is well-stocked. And ever tried starting earlier in the morning? I regularly sit down at my work's office desk around 07:30 yet leave after 18:00 :-(
DrWheetos wrote:
I regularly sit down at my work's office desk around 07:30 yet leave after 18:00
Me too, but I actually like it this way. I divide my days in 4 parts instead of 2 (lunch) this way. I feel it works great, I become inhabitated (?) at work and it feels a bit like home :p Although my wife isn't always happy with this. But starting early is definatly a good way to survive overtime
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Long term overtime is tough, especially if you're not used to it. Being the materialistic type of guy that I am ;P I get through it by deciding what I'm going to spend the money on when I've done the work. That way, when I feel like falling asleep at my desk after yet another long day I look forward to doing whatever it is I'm going to do with the extra money, which I wouldn't have been doing if it weren't for the overtime. In my opinion, you should enjoy yourself with overtime cash. You deserve it!
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Oh yeah. I picked up the habit when I was working 18 hour shifts at Samsung in S. Korea. It was the only thing I could do to not fall asleep or make an error that would do serious damage to a very expensive piece of equipment.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
WoW that's a shift... Couple of months ago I received a project that was really messed up and of course the deadline was two months back. It took me another two tough months to fix all the wrong stuff. I stayed at work for 11 to 14 hours every single day. In the end of this hell months I was so exhausted that I hadn't will for do anything except walking in the park near my residential district. So... keep walking... ;)
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Hi there, Working overtime totally depends on how you feel with it. Don't do it if you don't get energy from it. Not getting energy means that you'll never be fully committed to the project and you won't work the 110%. In the end you'll just burn extra hours. If you do get energy from your job, ask yourself whats more important to you: * Family * Hobbies * Money / Job * Etcetera Spending more time on the job means spending less time on the other things you like. For example, if you are a real family man, you won't feel happy about spending less time with your family and more time on the job. Also consider the risk of not getting the lump sum. You probably don't manage the scope and extra requirements mean extra overtime. What happens when an other developer gets sick? Even more overtime? When you decide to make the extra overtime, make sure you get the enough sleep. If you don't get it, you won't be able to work the full 110%, wich will be required to make the deadline. One last thing comes to my mind: since the project manager isn't any good when it comes to planning, why do you think this estimate is any good? Kind regards, Bob Stanneveld
Behind every great black man... ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Has the project manager been fired? I would stipulate that.
Has that ever happened? I've seen plenty of PMs overcommit but I've never once seen anyone but the dev and support teams take the lumps.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
I've been in this situation, The company had expectations of delivering a full blown product that probably would have taken several months in a few weeks! but they did however pay up the bonuses + more. However, eventually I worked myself into the ground and I ended up leaving the job burnt out, after regularly working late into the night and full day weekends. This was despite the fact it was quite an interesting role. It can also ruin relationships with people outside of work, so be wary of that. in another job, I've had managers put the pressure on to put extra work in, with no guarantee of any reward. Needless to day i got wise to that. Also the expectation of doing 2 hours a day extra may still be unrealistic...especially as it gets closer to the delivery deadline. expect more pressure to be applied! But it works both ways... In my experience, either the job is exciting but the expectations for delivery are way too unrealistic with a risk-reward scenario, or you get a job where the environment isn't so demanding, but the work is as dull as dishwater! I've not come across an working environment thats got the balance right yet. its down to the person really to decide what suits, but that comes with experience. Hope this helps...
William Falconer, Developer
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Yep. We used to get paid in terms of pizzas and it was cool at first, but after a few friday's with over 4 hours of overtime (on salary with no time and a half), the idea got old fast.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Hi there, Working overtime totally depends on how you feel with it. Don't do it if you don't get energy from it. Not getting energy means that you'll never be fully committed to the project and you won't work the 110%. In the end you'll just burn extra hours. If you do get energy from your job, ask yourself whats more important to you: * Family * Hobbies * Money / Job * Etcetera Spending more time on the job means spending less time on the other things you like. For example, if you are a real family man, you won't feel happy about spending less time with your family and more time on the job. Also consider the risk of not getting the lump sum. You probably don't manage the scope and extra requirements mean extra overtime. What happens when an other developer gets sick? Even more overtime? When you decide to make the extra overtime, make sure you get the enough sleep. If you don't get it, you won't be able to work the full 110%, wich will be required to make the deadline. One last thing comes to my mind: since the project manager isn't any good when it comes to planning, why do you think this estimate is any good? Kind regards, Bob Stanneveld
Behind every great black man... ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
The original estimates were so poor because they allowed no time for holidays amongst other things, but this is not as much of an estimate, as this is the deadline, that still hasn't moved. So now it's on us to get it done doing however much overtime we feel is necessary.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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In short... a massive project has fallen behind for our team (due to incompitent planning by the project manager, the development itself has not been slow), so our dev team has been bribed with a lump sum to get it done on time. The hours aren't fixed, so long as it gets done, doesn't matter when we come in, but it seems like for the next 2 months we're going to be sticking in roughly an extra 2 hours a day each every day. I don't think our regular coffee is going to cut this. This is my first job since uni and I've never done these kinds of hours over long term before, I'm sure by the end of it I'm going to feel pretty drained, so what advice do people have? Be it drinks, activities (or lack thereof) and keeping up with sleep, what can you suggest? :)
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Check the small print. When I had to work 7 days a week with overtime Mon - Friday for 7 weeks, and getting silly at the end (maybe 3 hours sleep), I discovered that I wasn't getting paid for some of it as according to the rules, I was taking unpaid breaks every so often to comply with some legislation or other. Still, it worked out in the end. The boss was pleased and increased my grade which came with no paid overtime but a £500 a year raise. I turned it down, showing him my overtime earnings. That got me about a £6,000 raise and, the best bit, because the first serious overtime had fixed some issues, I didn't need to do anywhere near as much after that. :-D Rich