Users don't buy .NET concept
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> Actually, I was thinking about persons that never learned to proper reply on a message I assume you mean me, but since that makes no sense I'll let it pass :') The phenomena I see are real. This business of the pause when I delete a file drives me nuts - I have to remember to not delete things unthinkingly as I have in the past (by that, I mean the junk files that we all occasionally find lying around. It puts a serious crimp in my productivity. The VC++ phenomenon is even wierder. What happens is that when I double-click a .DSW file, the program wil load it, will put up 2 simultaneous message boxes saying it needs to be converted to the new format.. and then MSDEV will crash, and strangely enough, the shell will no longer let me access the .DSW file - I have to reboot to get things started again. (Sometimes the folder containing the file will get stuck in a loop and stay blank.) I have a feeling that, my experiences aside, W2K is probably more stable than previous versions of Windows. But these wierdities are things I've never seen before on any version of Windows, and they are enough to throw me into a tizzy when they happen. And even though the driver problems are not necessarily Microsoft's fault - I pin some of the blame on them, because they make Windows so damn hard to program.
Hey Jim - that all sounds painful. Seems like a lot of these problems are either DLL incompatibilities (how many times have you had a shonky installation overwrite a new DLL with their older one?) or bad drivers (dark looks at anyone who ever failed to test their drivers on W2K for my Dell laptop :mad: ) From Windows Me there is the system rollback feature that allows you to undo bad changes, and .NET helps (and claims to remove) the problem of DLL Hell, so the situation is getting better. Is this the best way to do it though? Is it possible to have an OS that can withstand the nastiest device driver and most arrogant install package? (and still remain reasonably fast and simple to use?) I've no experience with another PC based OS, so I can't comment on how good Linux or MacOS or whatever is at handling third party drivers and a million different brands of hardware. Has anyone any good/bad stories about these guys? cheers, Chris Maunder
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Hey Jim - that all sounds painful. Seems like a lot of these problems are either DLL incompatibilities (how many times have you had a shonky installation overwrite a new DLL with their older one?) or bad drivers (dark looks at anyone who ever failed to test their drivers on W2K for my Dell laptop :mad: ) From Windows Me there is the system rollback feature that allows you to undo bad changes, and .NET helps (and claims to remove) the problem of DLL Hell, so the situation is getting better. Is this the best way to do it though? Is it possible to have an OS that can withstand the nastiest device driver and most arrogant install package? (and still remain reasonably fast and simple to use?) I've no experience with another PC based OS, so I can't comment on how good Linux or MacOS or whatever is at handling third party drivers and a million different brands of hardware. Has anyone any good/bad stories about these guys? cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris, the word is awful. We love to bash MS cause they're known and an easy target, but without exception when I've ventured into another realm, I've witnessed worse software. I'll be the first to admit that I've usually be somewhere between disappointed and upset with Microsoft's offerings (has anyone really spent any time with Microsoft Exchange?), but when I embrace an alternative, I'm even more disappointed. So what am I saying here, that MS is the lesser of known evils? Maybe. First and foremost I think MS should do a much better job of the software that they give us. FWIW I think Windows 2000 is excellent, and I hope that all future software releases meet the same standard. I truly believe that Microsoft understands this, and is trying to instill the philosophy of better reliability into its systems, and it's dev teams. David
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Chris, the word is awful. We love to bash MS cause they're known and an easy target, but without exception when I've ventured into another realm, I've witnessed worse software. I'll be the first to admit that I've usually be somewhere between disappointed and upset with Microsoft's offerings (has anyone really spent any time with Microsoft Exchange?), but when I embrace an alternative, I'm even more disappointed. So what am I saying here, that MS is the lesser of known evils? Maybe. First and foremost I think MS should do a much better job of the software that they give us. FWIW I think Windows 2000 is excellent, and I hope that all future software releases meet the same standard. I truly believe that Microsoft understands this, and is trying to instill the philosophy of better reliability into its systems, and it's dev teams. David
I'm using Win2K Pro, and I have many of the same problems that Jim reports. Very often in VC6 I'll hit the build button and get an error message that the file can't be saved because its in use by another application. Once, I lost the file entirelly and had to recreate it. Since then, I've learned to hit the save button before compiling or attempting to exit the IDE. I have one game I also like to play on Win2K. Until recently it was very slow and I could see a lot of activity on the hard drive (17 gigs). After upgrading from 125meg to 256 meg RAM those problems went away. Guess the operating system was doing an awfully lot of swaping. One of the things that might also cause file problems is antivirus programs. I have the latest version of Norton Antivirus and have learned to turn it off when I'm using VC6. This also seems to have helped things.
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According to VNUNet http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2698542,00.html "Even the switch to the NT kernel in Windows XP will not be reason enough for the average home user to upgrade." You don't need knowledge of OS'es to understand that the NT-kernel is much more stable then the Win9x/ME-kernel? I think this would be one of the major reasons for home-users to upgrade to XP. Although we didn't see that happen when Win2K released, but I think that's because MS said it was not for home-use. -- Alex Marbus www.marbus.net
Generally home users upgrade by buying a new computer. And they only do this when their old computer has become inadequate. When they upgrade, they'll get XP, no choice in the matter. Windows 95 only sold something like 7 million copies retail, which are mostly upgrades. They sold somthing like 200 million OEM copies.
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I'm using Win2K Pro, and I have many of the same problems that Jim reports. Very often in VC6 I'll hit the build button and get an error message that the file can't be saved because its in use by another application. Once, I lost the file entirelly and had to recreate it. Since then, I've learned to hit the save button before compiling or attempting to exit the IDE. I have one game I also like to play on Win2K. Until recently it was very slow and I could see a lot of activity on the hard drive (17 gigs). After upgrading from 125meg to 256 meg RAM those problems went away. Guess the operating system was doing an awfully lot of swaping. One of the things that might also cause file problems is antivirus programs. I have the latest version of Norton Antivirus and have learned to turn it off when I'm using VC6. This also seems to have helped things.
Antivirus programs are notorious for causing problems, primarily because they wedge themselves into the OS in ways that are basically uncool. Further, antivirus and software development are almost mutually exclusive. Think about it. What does a virus checker do, but watch for suspicious activity, and what could be more suspicious than an application which writes out new applications on disk? I've never seen any of the problems you mention with errors, except when the IDE itself gets confused. The application may not have actually ended and when you try to rebuild it, it's in use (by the OS).
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I've >NEVER< understood this myth that Win2k is stable. For the first 4 months of my use of my WIn2K system I was experiencing daily crashes, especially spontaneous reboots. It was so bad that files opened in VC++ would be trashed by the reboot - full of garbage data after rebooting. Turns out I had a bad video driver, and once that was replaced, all my problems went away.. but still, it shows that the system can be brought down, hard. And then there are the just-plain-freaky things that happen all the time - the 10 second pause every time I delete a file.. the Explorer lockup that happens when I try to open a VC5 .DSW file through a double-click... the occasional message that a file can't be saved because it is in use... etc. Crashes are not the only thanigs that force me to reboot.
Win2k *IS* quite stable, but like *ANY* OS, it's only as stable as it's device drivers. Device drivers need special priviledges to access hardware, and as such, can do all kinds of nasty things, and when they crash, they crash the kernel. That's the way virtually every OS in existance is, primiarily because the hardware demands it. Explorer lockups can usually be traced to a bad shell extension. Since shell extensions run in the context of the shell, when they crash, they also crash the shell. The alternative, making them out of process objects would have made them too slow to be useful. You're not very specific about what you mean about the files that can't be saved, but if you're referring to the IDE, it can get confused at times and try to write to the file while it's compiling it (and thus in use). This has nothing to do with the OS.
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Win2000 was SUPPOSED to be the merging of the two, then all of a sudden it wasn't. I believe this is why it was called W2000, which from a marketing POV makes it the follow on from 95/98. I think it rocks too, I hate having to use W98 instead, but as it is more unstable, it is better for testing code to make sure IT is stable. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
Actually, Win2000 *WAS* the merging of 9x and NT. The problem was that Win2k became too big and in order to ship on time they had to remove some stuff. So, the consumer version was pushed back to the next release.
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That author doesn't know the difference between Win XP and .NET, but putting that aside, he has a couple of good points, but has bad presentation of his arguments. He makes it seem like MS will go broke without more money coming in through subscription fees. He also says "With sales of new computers heading somewhere below sea level..." Neither of those make any sense. Re "People want to own software" - I see this being the case for many people. When I buy product X, I insist on having the physical install media. If my drive crashes or I rebuild my system, I want the ability to simply reinstall the product. Re "Users do not want to pay monthly fees just to get their computers to run." - I feel this way, but I can understand that newbie computer users (say, those that buy newbie-targeted systems like eMachines or iPaqs) would accept a monthly charge. And most important: "People want privacy." Ah yes. I guarantee (and you can quote me on this and post it on billboards if you want) I will never use any software that phones home on my personal system. Not Win XP, not Office, not PS2 games, nothing. Plain and simple, when I pay for Product X, and legally obtain it, it's none of the company's darn business how often I use it, what work I do with it, or if I even use it at all. While I understand the need to cut down on piracy, this method is simply unacceptable. If any company makes its software phone home, I will not buy it, use it, or support the company. </privacyrant> --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers.
Hmm.. I think you're misinformed about what is going on. Neither Windows or Office XP will phone home every time you use it. Think about it. How many computers are NOT connected to the internet? If it required to phone home to work, it wouldn't work on those systems. It only calls home when you install it. Further, you don't own the software, you only own the media and a revokeable license to use the software contained on the media. If they want, they can tell you that in order to use it, you have to stand on your head. This is the reality with Intellectual Property.
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Actually, Win2000 *WAS* the merging of 9x and NT. The problem was that Win2k became too big and in order to ship on time they had to remove some stuff. So, the consumer version was pushed back to the next release.
*grin* that's precisely what my first paragraph was trying to say.... Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
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I've >NEVER< understood this myth that Win2k is stable. For the first 4 months of my use of my WIn2K system I was experiencing daily crashes, especially spontaneous reboots. It was so bad that files opened in VC++ would be trashed by the reboot - full of garbage data after rebooting. Turns out I had a bad video driver, and once that was replaced, all my problems went away.. but still, it shows that the system can be brought down, hard. And then there are the just-plain-freaky things that happen all the time - the 10 second pause every time I delete a file.. the Explorer lockup that happens when I try to open a VC5 .DSW file through a double-click... the occasional message that a file can't be saved because it is in use... etc. Crashes are not the only thanigs that force me to reboot.
goofy drivers that run in ring 0 will do it every time wish driver writers would actually test what they wrote still thats why i buy name brand video cards i guess :suss: --- "every year we invent better idiot proof systems and every year they invent better idiots"
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Hey Jim - that all sounds painful. Seems like a lot of these problems are either DLL incompatibilities (how many times have you had a shonky installation overwrite a new DLL with their older one?) or bad drivers (dark looks at anyone who ever failed to test their drivers on W2K for my Dell laptop :mad: ) From Windows Me there is the system rollback feature that allows you to undo bad changes, and .NET helps (and claims to remove) the problem of DLL Hell, so the situation is getting better. Is this the best way to do it though? Is it possible to have an OS that can withstand the nastiest device driver and most arrogant install package? (and still remain reasonably fast and simple to use?) I've no experience with another PC based OS, so I can't comment on how good Linux or MacOS or whatever is at handling third party drivers and a million different brands of hardware. Has anyone any good/bad stories about these guys? cheers, Chris Maunder
You know, for all my bitching about Microsoft, I have never felt that there was anything better out there - if there was, I would have jumped. Linux seems promising at times, and the hype certainly makes it seem as though it could be the dominant OS in a few years - but then we have to remember that Linux is judged by different standards than Windows. Windows would never have gotten out the door if it was as painfully difficult to install and get running as Linux is (this from no experience, just what I've read). The Mac has a reputation for ease-of-use.. but then, if you read between the lines, you start hearing about all sorts of system instabilities and crashes. Mac users, until now, have had to manage virtual memory by hand! That doesn't sound user-friendly and intuitive to me! Mac OSX may just be the OS that people have been waiting for - but it's hard to separate reality from the hype, and once again the platform is judged by different standards than Windows is.
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goofy drivers that run in ring 0 will do it every time wish driver writers would actually test what they wrote still thats why i buy name brand video cards i guess :suss: --- "every year we invent better idiot proof systems and every year they invent better idiots"
> goofy drivers that run in ring 0 will do it every time wish driver writers would actually test what they wrote still thats why i buy name brand video cards i guess The video card is an ATI Rage 128 Pro that came preinstalled in my Dell Dimension system. Can't get any more "name brand" than that.
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Win2k *IS* quite stable, but like *ANY* OS, it's only as stable as it's device drivers. Device drivers need special priviledges to access hardware, and as such, can do all kinds of nasty things, and when they crash, they crash the kernel. That's the way virtually every OS in existance is, primiarily because the hardware demands it. Explorer lockups can usually be traced to a bad shell extension. Since shell extensions run in the context of the shell, when they crash, they also crash the shell. The alternative, making them out of process objects would have made them too slow to be useful. You're not very specific about what you mean about the files that can't be saved, but if you're referring to the IDE, it can get confused at times and try to write to the file while it's compiling it (and thus in use). This has nothing to do with the OS.
> You're not very specific about what you mean about the files that can't be saved, but if you're referring to the IDE, it can get confused at times and try to write to the file while it's compiling it (and thus in use). This has nothing to do with the OS. I'd need to catch the error message to be more specific on this, and I'll admit it's infrequent. But it has also happened in my graphics program (Paint Shop Pro) a few times, and I've also seen it mentioned by others, somewhere.
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> Actually, I was thinking about persons that never learned to proper reply on a message I assume you mean me, but since that makes no sense I'll let it pass :') The phenomena I see are real. This business of the pause when I delete a file drives me nuts - I have to remember to not delete things unthinkingly as I have in the past (by that, I mean the junk files that we all occasionally find lying around. It puts a serious crimp in my productivity. The VC++ phenomenon is even wierder. What happens is that when I double-click a .DSW file, the program wil load it, will put up 2 simultaneous message boxes saying it needs to be converted to the new format.. and then MSDEV will crash, and strangely enough, the shell will no longer let me access the .DSW file - I have to reboot to get things started again. (Sometimes the folder containing the file will get stuck in a loop and stay blank.) I have a feeling that, my experiences aside, W2K is probably more stable than previous versions of Windows. But these wierdities are things I've never seen before on any version of Windows, and they are enough to throw me into a tizzy when they happen. And even though the driver problems are not necessarily Microsoft's fault - I pin some of the blame on them, because they make Windows so damn hard to program.
I assume you mean me, but since that makes no sense I'll let it pass :') You're right, it was a bad joke. Sorry for that. Sounds like you're really experiencing a lot of trouble, have you ever considered re-installing the OS? (Although that should never be an option, it can help in some cases). Goodluck! -- Alex Marbus www.marbus.net
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Hey Jim - that all sounds painful. Seems like a lot of these problems are either DLL incompatibilities (how many times have you had a shonky installation overwrite a new DLL with their older one?) or bad drivers (dark looks at anyone who ever failed to test their drivers on W2K for my Dell laptop :mad: ) From Windows Me there is the system rollback feature that allows you to undo bad changes, and .NET helps (and claims to remove) the problem of DLL Hell, so the situation is getting better. Is this the best way to do it though? Is it possible to have an OS that can withstand the nastiest device driver and most arrogant install package? (and still remain reasonably fast and simple to use?) I've no experience with another PC based OS, so I can't comment on how good Linux or MacOS or whatever is at handling third party drivers and a million different brands of hardware. Has anyone any good/bad stories about these guys? cheers, Chris Maunder
MS said COM would fix our DLL Hell problem... So what's it gonna be? COM or .NET that fixes this "problem". The answer is neirther one. The only fix for DLL Hell is more attention to detail on the part of developers - period. There is no magic pill for this problem. Who is John Galt?
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That author doesn't know the difference between Win XP and .NET, but putting that aside, he has a couple of good points, but has bad presentation of his arguments. He makes it seem like MS will go broke without more money coming in through subscription fees. He also says "With sales of new computers heading somewhere below sea level..." Neither of those make any sense. Re "People want to own software" - I see this being the case for many people. When I buy product X, I insist on having the physical install media. If my drive crashes or I rebuild my system, I want the ability to simply reinstall the product. Re "Users do not want to pay monthly fees just to get their computers to run." - I feel this way, but I can understand that newbie computer users (say, those that buy newbie-targeted systems like eMachines or iPaqs) would accept a monthly charge. And most important: "People want privacy." Ah yes. I guarantee (and you can quote me on this and post it on billboards if you want) I will never use any software that phones home on my personal system. Not Win XP, not Office, not PS2 games, nothing. Plain and simple, when I pay for Product X, and legally obtain it, it's none of the company's darn business how often I use it, what work I do with it, or if I even use it at all. While I understand the need to cut down on piracy, this method is simply unacceptable. If any company makes its software phone home, I will not buy it, use it, or support the company. </privacyrant> --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ The preferred snack of 4 out of 5 Lounge readers.
.. given the hooha about Real Audio a while back returning unauthorised data to the corp I wonder if we will actually know what it is doing without having the source code, or packet tracing. My own view, too, is that privacy will be the battleground of this industrial revolution. I believe the quantity of private information sent publicly round open networks (eg. CV's, Contracts, medical test results) is frightening. If you believe your life is private you are misleading yourself, we've all seen the limited amount of money that is needed to get a copy of your latest bank statement. Put up your hand if you've never had a call from an agency which has your CV to whom you have never sent it! OK, that's either muscle wasting or most of have! Personally I'm find paranoia, or the extreme opposite, more attractive each day! I expect to be 'sectioned' in 2102! Al. PS: I though that when you pay for Office etc you obtain a licence to use it, nothing else. Perhaps I'm wrong. ATL Student :rolleyes:
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.. given the hooha about Real Audio a while back returning unauthorised data to the corp I wonder if we will actually know what it is doing without having the source code, or packet tracing. My own view, too, is that privacy will be the battleground of this industrial revolution. I believe the quantity of private information sent publicly round open networks (eg. CV's, Contracts, medical test results) is frightening. If you believe your life is private you are misleading yourself, we've all seen the limited amount of money that is needed to get a copy of your latest bank statement. Put up your hand if you've never had a call from an agency which has your CV to whom you have never sent it! OK, that's either muscle wasting or most of have! Personally I'm find paranoia, or the extreme opposite, more attractive each day! I expect to be 'sectioned' in 2102! Al. PS: I though that when you pay for Office etc you obtain a licence to use it, nothing else. Perhaps I'm wrong. ATL Student :rolleyes:
.. perhaps a darn good reason for (re-)building you own PC! Al. (Also quite happy with W2K, but starting to believe that easter eggs will be listed as enhanced functionality, because there isn't much else you can do to MS Word that shouldn't be listed as OS upgrades (double -ve ouch)! Seen the flight simulator in Excel: www.eeggs.com!) ATL Student :rolleyes:
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Hmm.. I think you're misinformed about what is going on. Neither Windows or Office XP will phone home every time you use it. Think about it. How many computers are NOT connected to the internet? If it required to phone home to work, it wouldn't work on those systems. It only calls home when you install it. Further, you don't own the software, you only own the media and a revokeable license to use the software contained on the media. If they want, they can tell you that in order to use it, you have to stand on your head. This is the reality with Intellectual Property.
They can tell me to stand on my head in order to use the software as you say, but I will not do so unless there is an advantage to me. Just because microsoft would like its user base to do something does not mean that it will. In reality I am likely to go along with this horrible new registration , but it is one more consideration when specifying what software to use in any given situation . And the advantage to Microsoft ? If they think that people with a pirate mentality will stump up cash they are mistaken , they will simply move to a cheaper platform .Thus in one swoop Microsoft will boost the number of users on other platforms. This has happened time and again in other industries . Here is an example:In the UK in the early seventies we had a motor industry . They looked at their sales and realised that they had thousands of retailers , but many were selling under 10 cars a month , the bulk of the sales came from a few big retailers. So to improve efficiency they cut all the small outlets. The logic seemed sound , but what happened is that all the small garages had no choice but to look for other cars to sell , this gave the Japanese an excellent foothold in the UK . We no longer have a car industry to speak of. Microsoft CAN stop the relativly few people running pirate software , but all that would do is push them to run other companies software , and be a headache for the people who use the products legally.
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Generally home users upgrade by buying a new computer. And they only do this when their old computer has become inadequate. When they upgrade, they'll get XP, no choice in the matter. Windows 95 only sold something like 7 million copies retail, which are mostly upgrades. They sold somthing like 200 million OEM copies.
Wasn't this attitude of no choice part of the reason that they wanted to break up Microsoft ? ;)
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> Actually, I was thinking about persons that never learned to proper reply on a message I assume you mean me, but since that makes no sense I'll let it pass :') The phenomena I see are real. This business of the pause when I delete a file drives me nuts - I have to remember to not delete things unthinkingly as I have in the past (by that, I mean the junk files that we all occasionally find lying around. It puts a serious crimp in my productivity. The VC++ phenomenon is even wierder. What happens is that when I double-click a .DSW file, the program wil load it, will put up 2 simultaneous message boxes saying it needs to be converted to the new format.. and then MSDEV will crash, and strangely enough, the shell will no longer let me access the .DSW file - I have to reboot to get things started again. (Sometimes the folder containing the file will get stuck in a loop and stay blank.) I have a feeling that, my experiences aside, W2K is probably more stable than previous versions of Windows. But these wierdities are things I've never seen before on any version of Windows, and they are enough to throw me into a tizzy when they happen. And even though the driver problems are not necessarily Microsoft's fault - I pin some of the blame on them, because they make Windows so damn hard to program.
Hi Jim, just a couple of points about your shell lock-up problems This happens to me on my Win2K machine (but not too often), and not just in Visual Studio. When explorer locks-up, ctrl_alt_del to task manager, kill the explorer process. (you should get a blank desktop). Then from the file menu in task manager, run explorer.exe (file/run/--->type explorer) This brings up a default explorer shell which will allow you to carry on without rebooting. Also sometimes when you close down Visual Studio afterwards you can't run a new copy. If you get this, go to task manager (again), and look for any remnants of visual studio (can't remember exactly because this one hasn't happened to me for a while, but the macro-engine part if MSVC doesn't terminate correctly, so kill this process, then everything should be OK). Hope this helps :) The spec. said "customer wants to get to the top of the mountain". Nobody asked why.
