C++, C#, web... Where do I go from here?
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Is it that I am wearing rose colored glasses or were things much easier when it was just C++ and MFC? Now that I have been doing consulting / contracting with .Net for a few years I find myself missing the days when I was working with C++/MFC. It seemed you had more control. There wasn't the disjointed mix of C#, SQL, HTML, CSS, ajax, java script, etc etc to debug. Then I had worked with C++/MFC for a few years, now it is all about the "generalised specialist", and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time. Maybe I should go into Project Management as the programmer career path articles seem to say you should, or should I try to specialise in something again? Just hard to know what to choose when everything changing so much.
I have flash backs wishing we I was wrting simple old MS DOS programs with text interfaces, what a simple life... Expectations where litle, if they prgram managed to store your data and bring it back, it was a good day :) Your total development tools usually were under $1,000. You could master the technology in a few months and only have one or to reference charts. Aslo, when you had a choice of green letters or green letters, it sure made figuring out the user interface pretty simple ;) Anyway, your career path should be based on what "you like to do". If you are a coder at heart, why push the management end unless you want that resposibility.. If you are only money, then Management is where the bucks live. It is really up to what your goals are and how much stress you like.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: SQL Server 2008!
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anixi wrote:
and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time.
and C++ is changing too. You have direct X 10, OpenGL 2.x, you have C++09 coming down the pipes with pre-release capabilities available from Intel and Gnu. C++ changes and advances as much as C#, you just haven't dealt with it.
El Corazon wrote:
C++09
Its official? Finally. Somehow C++0x seems so much nicer a name, maybe I just got used to it..
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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Several times I thought about it. Maybe people gain confidence more and more! I'm not kidding. Look at the code project. Once upon a time few people had enough confidence, as a result of their knowledge, to write articles; quality of articles were considerably higher then. Something similar maybe going on in programming field today. Designing and inventing new technologies was something to do with care, I believe. Many fundamental inventions in Computer science were done carefully(Memory management, multitasking, multithreading, communicating using sockets, etc), but now we go another way. As soon as someone has an idea (mostly in Microsoft but not limited to them), a new technology comes out and sooner or later when they notice that there had been a better way, totally different, they start implementing the better way again and again. Maybe people have too much confidence or money so they don't care if any of their technologies fail, maybe it's normal because everything is moving from desktop to web while basement was not ready for these heavy sort of tasks, maybe they're trying to make it more team work and working alone becomes more and more difficult(Managers, Designers, Graphic guys, DBAs and (sometimes we need :-D) programmers), maybe it's a technology not matured yet, maybe... Anything the reason is, I totally agree with you that spending everyday learning new things is not interesting. I want to have enough free time to use what I learned.
"In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni
modified on Monday, August 11, 2008 1:13 AM
Hamed Mosavi wrote:
. Look at the code project. Once upon a time few people had enough confidence, as a result of their knowledge, to write articles; quality of articles were considerably higher then.
To be fair, the issue here is a flood of bad articles from people, not a dropping in quality. The same number of good articles is coming in, I believe.
Christian Graus No longer a Microsoft MVP, but still happy to answer your questions.
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Is it that I am wearing rose colored glasses or were things much easier when it was just C++ and MFC? Now that I have been doing consulting / contracting with .Net for a few years I find myself missing the days when I was working with C++/MFC. It seemed you had more control. There wasn't the disjointed mix of C#, SQL, HTML, CSS, ajax, java script, etc etc to debug. Then I had worked with C++/MFC for a few years, now it is all about the "generalised specialist", and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time. Maybe I should go into Project Management as the programmer career path articles seem to say you should, or should I try to specialise in something again? Just hard to know what to choose when everything changing so much.
Hi, I thought i was the only one feeling like that... I programmed in Delphi, had control about my code. Had some ownbuild reusable components and source code. Develop time was much shorter then now programming C# to get the same result. It was a pleasure to write software. Now with all the new techniques with never ending story, i'm thinking about quiting my job as software engineer en start something completely different. On the other side... yes i programmed also Basic :-) , T-SQL and ASP/HTML. So, what's the difference.. There's much to learn those days and it's more difficult to choose a direction that suits you. Too bad you can't do and know everything just like we did in the old days. greetz kurt PS : You're going the right way if you stop from time to time and think by yourself... where am i, what am i doing, is this what i want and where will i go to ?
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I have flash backs wishing we I was wrting simple old MS DOS programs with text interfaces, what a simple life... Expectations where litle, if they prgram managed to store your data and bring it back, it was a good day :) Your total development tools usually were under $1,000. You could master the technology in a few months and only have one or to reference charts. Aslo, when you had a choice of green letters or green letters, it sure made figuring out the user interface pretty simple ;) Anyway, your career path should be based on what "you like to do". If you are a coder at heart, why push the management end unless you want that resposibility.. If you are only money, then Management is where the bucks live. It is really up to what your goals are and how much stress you like.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: SQL Server 2008!
Rocky Moore wrote:
Anyway, your career path should be based on what "you like to do". If you are a coder at heart, why push the management end unless you want that resposibility.. If you are only money, then Management is where the bucks live. It is really up to what your goals are and how much stress you like.
So is coding a stressful option? :) I was considering project management as a less stressful option. Everything feels out of control, maybe as PM I would have more control? Though really I think I am just going one of those-were-the-days things you sometimes do on a Monday. :)
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Hamed Mosavi wrote:
. Look at the code project. Once upon a time few people had enough confidence, as a result of their knowledge, to write articles; quality of articles were considerably higher then.
To be fair, the issue here is a flood of bad articles from people, not a dropping in quality. The same number of good articles is coming in, I believe.
Christian Graus No longer a Microsoft MVP, but still happy to answer your questions.
Christian Graus wrote:
flood of bad articles from people
Exactly. Probably explained badly, I'm sorry. I mean some people have enough confidence to upload an article which has a poor quality, likewise companies with technologies which has not good quality and should stay in labs for a while before being widely available.
"In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni
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Is it that I am wearing rose colored glasses or were things much easier when it was just C++ and MFC? Now that I have been doing consulting / contracting with .Net for a few years I find myself missing the days when I was working with C++/MFC. It seemed you had more control. There wasn't the disjointed mix of C#, SQL, HTML, CSS, ajax, java script, etc etc to debug. Then I had worked with C++/MFC for a few years, now it is all about the "generalised specialist", and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time. Maybe I should go into Project Management as the programmer career path articles seem to say you should, or should I try to specialise in something again? Just hard to know what to choose when everything changing so much.
anixi wrote:
Maybe I should go into Project Management
Can't manage new technology? Why not Project-Manage new technology instead. (Yeah ok - maybe somewhere there are PMs who can do more than layout MSAccess reports but I don't think I've ever met one...)
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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Well, apart from SQL ( so you didn't do DB apps in C++ ? ) the rest of your list is the hell of web dev. It's just you, me, and everyone else, brother. I just take whatever comes along ( working on iPhone right now ) and enjoy adding to my theoretical resume :P
Christian Graus No longer a Microsoft MVP, but still happy to answer your questions.
Got to agree, it's part of the territory - in web you need to know enough about everything to convince anyyone that you are competent; which in turn gives you the leeway to get at Google (or CodeProject!) to actually find out the reality. The real danger is the stuff that you don't know you don't know - because you can't search for it. I'd add to the list graphics - as the average project rarely comes with a well designed look and field and ones better paid colleagues usually want something that looks and works better than Amazon; without adding to the project cost.
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Hamed Mosavi wrote:
Anything the reason is, I totally agree with you that spending everyday learning new things is not interesting. I want to have enough free time to use what I learned.
Exactly! I think what I am missing is the chance to get to know somethings to the point where I can be confident I am using it the best way I can rather then as a quick way to fix something.
Ah, being given the chance to get confident is a luxury with browser based stuff. Since I started 10 years ago I've lost track of the languages, toolsets, libraries and methodologies that I've abandoned along the way - never mind the ones I'm supposed to be expert in today.
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Hamed Mosavi wrote:
. Look at the code project. Once upon a time few people had enough confidence, as a result of their knowledge, to write articles; quality of articles were considerably higher then.
To be fair, the issue here is a flood of bad articles from people, not a dropping in quality. The same number of good articles is coming in, I believe.
Christian Graus No longer a Microsoft MVP, but still happy to answer your questions.
I think people are more critical on CP than they once were and also there are a lot of people fundamentally doing CV work. You've got to ask the question of who has the time to produce a good article, properly researched and considered? I'd guess that a lot of articles were flung together in a couple of hours; whereas the best articles must have once taken tens of hours maybe more by experienced people to ensure that the correct checks are made. Who has that kind of time? How experienced can they be? My guess is that a lot of articles are from people in full-time education - and with the best will in the world... its similar to Top Gear being presented by some people who are taking driving lessons. OK maybe that's not the best will in the world.
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Rocky Moore wrote:
Anyway, your career path should be based on what "you like to do". If you are a coder at heart, why push the management end unless you want that resposibility.. If you are only money, then Management is where the bucks live. It is really up to what your goals are and how much stress you like.
So is coding a stressful option? :) I was considering project management as a less stressful option. Everything feels out of control, maybe as PM I would have more control? Though really I think I am just going one of those-were-the-days things you sometimes do on a Monday. :)
Project Management is more stressful than coding - and you can't come back when if you don't like it. PMs have to balance the raging madmen in charge and their expectations of ridiculously cheap and effective solutions with the raving loonies in dev who want to spend way too much money and time. Essentially the senior management want to pay for a Lada and get a Ferrari; and the devs want to design a Ferrari, have a few fun weeks mucking about with the design and then as the deadline approaches knock out a Lada, but colour it red. But without a manual. Or any roadtesting. And by the time they deliver the management now want a silver Porche.
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anixi wrote:
Maybe I should go into Project Management
Can't manage new technology? Why not Project-Manage new technology instead. (Yeah ok - maybe somewhere there are PMs who can do more than layout MSAccess reports but I don't think I've ever met one...)
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
Technically competent PMs? I'll give you the contact details of a few as soon as I've finished sweeping up this rocking horse sh*t.
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Is it that I am wearing rose colored glasses or were things much easier when it was just C++ and MFC? Now that I have been doing consulting / contracting with .Net for a few years I find myself missing the days when I was working with C++/MFC. It seemed you had more control. There wasn't the disjointed mix of C#, SQL, HTML, CSS, ajax, java script, etc etc to debug. Then I had worked with C++/MFC for a few years, now it is all about the "generalised specialist", and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time. Maybe I should go into Project Management as the programmer career path articles seem to say you should, or should I try to specialise in something again? Just hard to know what to choose when everything changing so much.
The answer is very simple - ignore new Microsoft technology for at least 3 years, if it’s still being developed after that time, then probably safe to adopt! Now this saves on all the distractions of the dizzy marketing and engineering types at Microsoft that should be not allowed near a computer or abacus for that matter. Use both C++ and C# and have to admit C++ seems like a real engineering tool, still see c# as a bit of a toy town product --- I know it’s not but, well maybe it is you can’t use it for real time stuff!
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El Corazon wrote:
C++09
Its official? Finally. Somehow C++0x seems so much nicer a name, maybe I just got used to it..
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
It is indeed. Alistair Meredith gave a rapid fire summary of it at this years ACCU Conference[^], and I can confirm that '09 is a major upgrade to the language. I blogged about it at http://www.riverblade.co.uk/blog.php#6807606905401253431[^] (NB it's a long post as it covers all the sessions I attended that day - look for "C++ 2009 in 90 minutes").
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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It is indeed. Alistair Meredith gave a rapid fire summary of it at this years ACCU Conference[^], and I can confirm that '09 is a major upgrade to the language. I blogged about it at http://www.riverblade.co.uk/blog.php#6807606905401253431[^] (NB it's a long post as it covers all the sessions I attended that day - look for "C++ 2009 in 90 minutes").
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
As my younger brother says, "wicked cool!" :D
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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As my younger brother says, "wicked cool!" :D
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
It sure is. It's going to take a while to work its way through to the compiler vendors, though.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Is it that I am wearing rose colored glasses or were things much easier when it was just C++ and MFC? Now that I have been doing consulting / contracting with .Net for a few years I find myself missing the days when I was working with C++/MFC. It seemed you had more control. There wasn't the disjointed mix of C#, SQL, HTML, CSS, ajax, java script, etc etc to debug. Then I had worked with C++/MFC for a few years, now it is all about the "generalised specialist", and I tend to feel like I am struggling to learn new things all the time. Maybe I should go into Project Management as the programmer career path articles seem to say you should, or should I try to specialise in something again? Just hard to know what to choose when everything changing so much.
Simpler? Before C++ and MFC, I was programming in Fortran, Algol, Pascal, Forth, Basic, Prolog, and 3 or 4 assembly languages. C++ was just another language in a long line-up and I've learned more since. I think you are just working in a semi-isolated environment and need to get out more! I was interfacing legacy Fortran, Basic and assembly language apps with Excel, Word, etc. and VBA back with WfW. (remember that mess?)
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Hi, I thought i was the only one feeling like that... I programmed in Delphi, had control about my code. Had some ownbuild reusable components and source code. Develop time was much shorter then now programming C# to get the same result. It was a pleasure to write software. Now with all the new techniques with never ending story, i'm thinking about quiting my job as software engineer en start something completely different. On the other side... yes i programmed also Basic :-) , T-SQL and ASP/HTML. So, what's the difference.. There's much to learn those days and it's more difficult to choose a direction that suits you. Too bad you can't do and know everything just like we did in the old days. greetz kurt PS : You're going the right way if you stop from time to time and think by yourself... where am i, what am i doing, is this what i want and where will i go to ?
topcatalpha wrote:
I thought i was the only one feeling like that...
Hi Kurt, No, you are definitely not alone. I've been doing this about 32 years now myself and have felt exactly like this. In my case I've simply reached a point where I realize that there's no way I can keep up with it all. In my particular job I'm fortunate to have specialized in the business-rules layer which is mostly written in VB/VB.Net. I do use C# from time-to-time which is OK but since I'm the "owner" of this section of the system (no one else wants to touch it) I've got pretty good control of what I do here. I spent many years writing C and Assembly code when PC's were new. Loved doing that. I've tinkered with web development here and there over the last 7 years or so and understand how to do it but it's still not something I do by choice. We have a lot of young developer here who are all into that stuff - I just take the low-level junk that they don't want to do. I still really enjoy writing code. I don't have any aspirations for management, make a good living at it and my life is relatively quiet. The pieces I build in the system are critical to its operation but I can still afford to keep things relatively simple. The key, IMHO, is to specialize if possible and get REALLY GOOD at doing a few things rather than trying to know just a little about it all. Remember the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none?". That applies BIG TIME in this field. -CB ;)
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Hamed Mosavi wrote:
. Look at the code project. Once upon a time few people had enough confidence, as a result of their knowledge, to write articles; quality of articles were considerably higher then.
To be fair, the issue here is a flood of bad articles from people, not a dropping in quality. The same number of good articles is coming in, I believe.
Christian Graus No longer a Microsoft MVP, but still happy to answer your questions.
Here's the thing. Web development has become fad driven. Being a web developer is like working in marketing (what's the new black today). Languages and frameworks spring up on a daily basis, most only partially realized before they are cast aside in favor of some other new technology. Pyhon, Ruby, Ruby on Rails, Iron Python what's that? Oh you want me code it in F#, sure, whatever. In many cases these languages are designed to solve a specific problem the problem of course is that everyone is off partially implementing their own thing rather than producing a cohesive set of technologies that everyone can learn, use and expand. It would be really nice if someone would decide what language and technologies are going to power the web and stick to it. Hell, I'd like it enforced at the router level. If your code isn't up to snuff, you can't be on the internet, that simple.
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Simpler? Before C++ and MFC, I was programming in Fortran, Algol, Pascal, Forth, Basic, Prolog, and 3 or 4 assembly languages. C++ was just another language in a long line-up and I've learned more since. I think you are just working in a semi-isolated environment and need to get out more! I was interfacing legacy Fortran, Basic and assembly language apps with Excel, Word, etc. and VBA back with WfW. (remember that mess?)
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I agree with that. Software development is about creating a solution to something a client needs help with. The huge stack of languages is nothing more than a variety of tools meant to do this. That one language is better than another under certain circumstances is always going to happen. That the best one may involve many languages/pieces is highly likely. One size fits all is just not applicable in technology. Think of the number of cell phones or computers that are discarded extremely fast and you will realize the pace of change That people come up with very specific lanuguages addressing very narrow issues is a testament to people and their persistence in trying to find better solutions (even if no tool exists). Sure Microsoft hypes it all up as do others, but my enjoyment of software does not come from being able to perfectly master a language but in being able to cleanly and elegantly create a solution to a complex issue, and then have it as maintainable as possible. I really find it exciting to find a way to do something that was extremely difficult and error prone one way, be simple and natural in another language. I don't chase fads and do take a late to the party approach (Who has Windows XP SP3 yet?), but I sure do like to know what is hot so that I can watch it. I also like to know enough about the language (Perhaps not actually learning the language yet sometimes) to tell if it will help me when I encounter a client situation that the language was designed for. The Pragmatic Programmer (Andrew Hunt & David Thomas - Addison Wesley) is an awesome read for anyone in this field. :)