What training would prove to be worth while?
-
For long-term value added to capabilities in your chosen profession, getting Computer Science education is highly worthwhile. I've worked with a lot of "mustangs" (a term I borrowed from the military) by which I mean programmers who learned on the job and who never took any coursework in computer sciences, and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do, so sometimes what they produce is vastly inefficient even though the right results are achieved in other respects. Short-term, though, if you're using relatively up-to-date development systems, going to conferences that offer tutorials in advanced topics will get you knowledge that may be hard to acquire otherwise. Using those, as well as online tutorials, will give you the most bang for the buck in the short term.
cpkilekofp wrote:
I've worked with a lot of "mustangs" (a term I borrowed from the military) by which I mean programmers who learned on the job and who never took any coursework in computer sciences, and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do, so sometimes what they produce is vastly inefficient even though the right results are achieved in other respects.
I would also disagree. Mustangs I can legally use given my line of work, are the non-team members, the ones that hold the opinion regardless of what you say. We have a CS mustang at work. He knows nothing of the APIs and frameworks, things Java is the best language in the world, and his largest complaint about me is that I parallel program when he was taught to MUTEX the hell out of everything therefore I am programming wrong. I also refuse to let him drop Windows support. We do Linux, and Windows. His largest complaint with the company is that we still buy M$. He is a mustang. I tried to explain why an STL container is wrong by how it works inside. He stopped me, it is irrelevant how it works inside, that was the point of STL that we didn't have to know how. So this "self taught" (mustang as you think), wants to know how things work, I want to push technology to multi-threading and parallel, GPU use. His job, as a CS is to prevent all of that!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
-
cpkilekofp wrote:
and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do
That's odd because I've found exactly the opposite. Most self-taught engineers I've worked with understand the APIs and frameworks quite well, while most CS majors I've worked don't have a damn clue.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
cpkilekofp wrote: and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do That's odd because I've found exactly the opposite. Most self-taught engineers I've worked with understand the APIs and frameworks quite well, while most CS majors I've worked don't have a damn clue.
You have been fortunate. Also, many such have self-educated in computer science. It's the ones who haven't who are the problem.
-
I've already gotten my BS in Computer Information Systems. I have a full-time developer job and my company is willing to pay for more training if it will help me do my job better. My main development environment is Visual Studio 2003, 2005 and I mostly develop in C# .NET. I have been as this job for more than a year so I don't have years of experience. What kind of training will prove to be worthwhile? I've read a lot that certifications are becoming less and less important to companies. Are developer conferences good to attend? I've never been to one. Does any one have any other suggestions?
Courses related to the discipline you're developing software for. If it's GIS related, learn more about GIS fundamentals, standards etc. If it's records management related, learn more about records management fundamentals, standards etc. And so on. In other words, pick courses that will give you a better understanding of the problems you'll use your IT skills to solve. Cheers, Drew.
-
I've already gotten my BS in Computer Information Systems. I have a full-time developer job and my company is willing to pay for more training if it will help me do my job better. My main development environment is Visual Studio 2003, 2005 and I mostly develop in C# .NET. I have been as this job for more than a year so I don't have years of experience. What kind of training will prove to be worthwhile? I've read a lot that certifications are becoming less and less important to companies. Are developer conferences good to attend? I've never been to one. Does any one have any other suggestions?
bn3m wrote:
Are developer conferences good to attend?
Yes, those can be good. Sometimes they give out really cool door prizes :)
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
-
Actually, kick-boxing probably would help you do your job better. ;P As would any exercise - unless you already do exercise... Kickboxing is good fun though... planning to get back to it time permitting.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
-
Actually, kick-boxing probably would help you do your job better. ;P As would any exercise - unless you already do exercise... Kickboxing is good fun though... planning to get back to it time permitting.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
I only suggested it so that if Chuck Norris ever came by his office to kick everyone's ass, at least one person there would put up something that looked like a fight before he was killed.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I've already gotten my BS in Computer Information Systems. I have a full-time developer job and my company is willing to pay for more training if it will help me do my job better. My main development environment is Visual Studio 2003, 2005 and I mostly develop in C# .NET. I have been as this job for more than a year so I don't have years of experience. What kind of training will prove to be worthwhile? I've read a lot that certifications are becoming less and less important to companies. Are developer conferences good to attend? I've never been to one. Does any one have any other suggestions?
30-60 minutes of aerobic exercise, three times a week. I run and bicycle myself. Weight training is good too, on alternate days from the aerobic stuff.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Kick-boxing.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001All right John! I'm glad someone else reacted the way I did (I saw your post after I made mine).
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
cpkilekofp wrote:
I've worked with a lot of "mustangs" (a term I borrowed from the military) by which I mean programmers who learned on the job and who never took any coursework in computer sciences, and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do, so sometimes what they produce is vastly inefficient even though the right results are achieved in other respects.
I would also disagree. Mustangs I can legally use given my line of work, are the non-team members, the ones that hold the opinion regardless of what you say. We have a CS mustang at work. He knows nothing of the APIs and frameworks, things Java is the best language in the world, and his largest complaint about me is that I parallel program when he was taught to MUTEX the hell out of everything therefore I am programming wrong. I also refuse to let him drop Windows support. We do Linux, and Windows. His largest complaint with the company is that we still buy M$. He is a mustang. I tried to explain why an STL container is wrong by how it works inside. He stopped me, it is irrelevant how it works inside, that was the point of STL that we didn't have to know how. So this "self taught" (mustang as you think), wants to know how things work, I want to push technology to multi-threading and parallel, GPU use. His job, as a CS is to prevent all of that!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
Sounds like this mustang is just an asshat, regardless of which breed of horse his parents were.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
I've already gotten my BS in Computer Information Systems. I have a full-time developer job and my company is willing to pay for more training if it will help me do my job better. My main development environment is Visual Studio 2003, 2005 and I mostly develop in C# .NET. I have been as this job for more than a year so I don't have years of experience. What kind of training will prove to be worthwhile? I've read a lot that certifications are becoming less and less important to companies. Are developer conferences good to attend? I've never been to one. Does any one have any other suggestions?
Ask your company for projects that will broaden your skillset.
Todd Smith
-
I've already gotten my BS in Computer Information Systems. I have a full-time developer job and my company is willing to pay for more training if it will help me do my job better. My main development environment is Visual Studio 2003, 2005 and I mostly develop in C# .NET. I have been as this job for more than a year so I don't have years of experience. What kind of training will prove to be worthwhile? I've read a lot that certifications are becoming less and less important to companies. Are developer conferences good to attend? I've never been to one. Does any one have any other suggestions?
In the USA, Spanish.
MrPlankton
-
Joe Woodbury wrote:
cpkilekofp wrote: and the biggest criticism I have of them is that they don't understand why the APIs and frameworks they use work the way they do That's odd because I've found exactly the opposite. Most self-taught engineers I've worked with understand the APIs and frameworks quite well, while most CS majors I've worked don't have a damn clue.
You have been fortunate. Also, many such have self-educated in computer science. It's the ones who haven't who are the problem.
cpkilekofp wrote:
You have been fortunate. Also, many such have self-educated in computer science. It's the ones who haven't who are the problem.
I don't think fortune has any part of it. It is the person you deal with, not the education. You can idiots with or without a CS education. You can have better programmers with or without a CS degree as well. If the person believes their opinion should change the world, they are already in the wrong business. If the person believes that they have learned everything they need to for their entire life already, regardless if that education was in college or on their own, they will be a mustang. I often joke, I have little formal education, but have I have taught two programming courses, written many algorithms that are standard for the 3D industry at large, and have done two Masters projects -- unfortunately those were for other people not myself. See those type of people in CS that look to others to steal their work will have their degrees, so a degree does not change who they are. A degree is a START, just as self-education is a START. Either direction, formal or informal education, will create mustangs if they believe they are done. Life is an education, some people realize that, some do not. Formal education in that process means little.
-
cpkilekofp wrote:
You have been fortunate. Also, many such have self-educated in computer science. It's the ones who haven't who are the problem.
I don't think fortune has any part of it. It is the person you deal with, not the education. You can idiots with or without a CS education. You can have better programmers with or without a CS degree as well. If the person believes their opinion should change the world, they are already in the wrong business. If the person believes that they have learned everything they need to for their entire life already, regardless if that education was in college or on their own, they will be a mustang. I often joke, I have little formal education, but have I have taught two programming courses, written many algorithms that are standard for the 3D industry at large, and have done two Masters projects -- unfortunately those were for other people not myself. See those type of people in CS that look to others to steal their work will have their degrees, so a degree does not change who they are. A degree is a START, just as self-education is a START. Either direction, formal or informal education, will create mustangs if they believe they are done. Life is an education, some people realize that, some do not. Formal education in that process means little.
El Corazon wrote:
I don't think fortune has any part of it. It is the person you deal with, not the education. You can idiots with or without a CS education. You can have better programmers with or without a CS degree as well. If the person believes their opinion should change the world, they are already in the wrong business. If the person believes that they have learned everything they need to for their entire life already, regardless if that education was in college or on their own, they will be a mustang.
I believe I need to clarify. In the American military, a "mustang" is an enlisted person who becomes an officer. They rarely get the full education that our national military academies dispense, usually going to a shorter series of courses. I NEVER use "mustang" as a pejorative. In this case, I use "mustang" to refer to a programmer who became a programmer as part of their job without ever taking any significant CS courses. I also note that some of our finest officers started as "mustangs." Let's pick another term those frozen in their belief that they need no further education/training/knowledge - let's call them "mushrooms", as they sit in the dark and feed themselves on night soil. That said, more people need formal education than not in order to "get" some of the pieces of algorithms, data structures, etc. Also (and I'm sure you've seen this happen at least once) a good CS program (particularly at the graduate level) will teach ways of looking at software development that don't occur naturally - many (I'm confident this includes you) develop these habits independently, but most don't. BTW, Edsger Dykstra's opinion HAS changed the computer world, more than once. Don't undersell confidence, as long as it justifies itself with results
El Corazon wrote:
I often joke, I have little formal education, but have I have taught two programming courses, written many algorithms that are standard for the 3D industry at large, and have done two Masters projects -- unfortunately those were for other people not myself. See those type of people in CS that look to others to steal their work will have their degrees, so a degree does not change who they are. A degree is a START, just as self-education is a START. Either direction, formal or informal education, will create mustangs if they believe they are done. Life is an education, some people realize that, some do not. Formal education in that process
-
I only suggested it so that if Chuck Norris ever came by his office to kick everyone's ass, at least one person there would put up something that looked like a fight before he was killed.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
