code aesthetics
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Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
What I see is that every programmer has their own way of doing "good formatting" we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( :rolleyes: ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable. We finally agreed on a format through a document forced into the chain, but no one will enforce it, so we still have the same status quo. I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care. A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
El Corazon wrote:
we tried for 2.5 years in meetings
912 days of meetings? Damn! That must have been a bitch. I hope they provided lunch.
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
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Ooooooo - that strikes a nerve with ME alright. I am a column nazi. People. Can't we at least agree that code shouldn't be wider than 120 columns? (I prefer a width of 80 myself). And for GOD'S SAKE why won't some of you indent your code????? I don't care if it's 3 spaces or 4 or a tab or what, but PLEEEASE! I'm BEGGING YOUuuuuuuu......... Why? Why can't you just keep it on one screen and indent? Is the reason because it takes time to write it that way? (once) And it's just as easy for YOU to read it that way? (80 times) Whyyyyyyy??? I really wanna know...
120 columns? Are you still stuck on a CRT?
Todd Smith
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Scott Dorman wrote:
You spent way too long debating it then.
That is obvious from all of our meetings. Without demands from above, diverging interests, fears, or misconseptions drive the individuals in different directions. Our previous meeting before the last one was 4 hours... this last one was 6 hours. I imagine the next one will be all day. After that we might have to pay overtime for meetings.... obviously something is wrong when this happens. :) Thus lunar illumination. ;) ;) with the intent on expansion to permanent in intent. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
There are tools that can check formatting during checkin to systems like SVN. If the formatting isn't correct the file can either be rejected or the build marked as broken.
Todd Smith
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El Corazon wrote:
we tried for 2.5 years in meetings
912 days of meetings? Damn! That must have been a bitch. I hope they provided lunch.
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
someone 5 this for me! I can't on this phone. :) lunch? that would be illegal. I know a project (not ours) that was tri-service unification for one specific piece of hardware that was already in use by all 3 major groups, but without any common standard. They spent 10 years in meetings trying for consensus, never got it. But buying lunch would be a gift which is illegal to provide or accept. :-P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
Together with cool syntax highlighting, well laid out code makes you want to eat it. ;P
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
BTW, I just finished 'slotting' new code into a decompiled ASP.NET application. It's so neat, but so truly ugly. This being urgent maintenance, I followed the existing coding style: dynamically adding HTML to a Label control for the report, filtered for a dynamically built SQL query, directly off user input. But wait, there is more; they used manual control-break code for grouping. :~
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120 columns? Are you still stuck on a CRT?
Todd Smith
CRT, 140 columns in VS203. Somewhat less in 2k8 because of how I have the sidebars sized. I also have an LCD but missed the switch from buying 1280x1024 to 1680x1050 screens by a few months. :doh: I'm not sure if LCDs are on the same 4 year upgrade cycle as laptops, or how my having a midcycle swap when my old laptop had issues will affect it. I'd be dual CRT except the 2nd dock port is DVI-D only.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Ooooooo - that strikes a nerve with ME alright. I am a column nazi. People. Can't we at least agree that code shouldn't be wider than 120 columns? (I prefer a width of 80 myself). And for GOD'S SAKE why won't some of you indent your code????? I don't care if it's 3 spaces or 4 or a tab or what, but PLEEEASE! I'm BEGGING YOUuuuuuuu......... Why? Why can't you just keep it on one screen and indent? Is the reason because it takes time to write it that way? (once) And it's just as easy for YOU to read it that way? (80 times) Whyyyyyyy??? I really wanna know...
It must suck to be you! :omg:
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leppie wrote:
C# is easy, delete the last curly brace in the file, and just create it again. Voila, code formatted
C++ is easy, with astyle integrated into your IDE, just type your code and it is formatted. ;P you don't even have to delete your last curly brace. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
C# does that for new code without an IDE plugin. Zapping and replacing a } forces a reformat of everything inside the block.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
It's a must. I like to be able to squint at code and see pretty patterns in the text, which is as near as dammit impossible if due care and attention has not been taken by the monkey bashing the keys (or if it's written in Perl :) ).
You too? :laugh:
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Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
What I see is that every programmer has their own way of doing "good formatting" we tried for 2.5 years in meetings ( :rolleyes: ) to get a consensus, it was unreachable. We finally agreed on a format through a document forced into the chain, but no one will enforce it, so we still have the same status quo. I personally think every programmer on his own should write clean looking code, whether by beautifier or 1st time out writing I don't care. A team should have a tool to either verify consistency or beautify to consistant format. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
What we need is an IDE that does autoformat on opening a file, and diff tools that do the same *before* doing the comparison. That way everyone can have his/her favorite happy format, always see that format, and not crap all over the diff results in source control. Given the dollar cost of your futile meetings in a sane world you should be able to convince the PTB to authorize developing said tool on overhead.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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someone 5 this for me! I can't on this phone. :) lunch? that would be illegal. I know a project (not ours) that was tri-service unification for one specific piece of hardware that was already in use by all 3 major groups, but without any common standard. They spent 10 years in meetings trying for consensus, never got it. But buying lunch would be a gift which is illegal to provide or accept. :-P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
AIUI it's only illegal if you're giving it tor govt employees for free, not for internal use.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.?
I'm right there with you, Marc.
"Love people and use things, not love things and use people." - Unknown
"The brick walls are there for a reason...to stop the people who don't want it badly enough." - Randy Pausch
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Of course it should... but only my style looks good. :-D I've only worked at one place that published (and enforced) a coding standard, and because it was followed maintaining the code was a snap. This is one of the areas where a new graduate can really benefit from working for a large shop.
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AIUI it's only illegal if you're giving it tor govt employees for free, not for internal use.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
dan neely wrote:
not for internal use.
true, but the company only does what the government provides. :) so they don't we don't. :) simple. And if they were to try, we couldn't, because that would not be good. :) so we can't. :) keeps things logical. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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dan neely wrote:
not for internal use.
true, but the company only does what the government provides. :) so they don't we don't. :) simple. And if they were to try, we couldn't, because that would not be good. :) so we can't. :) keeps things logical. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
Sucks to be you. SOP here is that if you're required to say in for a working lunch (not billable time) the manager(s) responsible buy a meal (typically pizza). Which naturally triggers griping about management equating 1hr of work with $5 of pizza whenever they do it for something we don't want to attend. :rolleyes:
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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I try to do the same, but isn't this sort of relative, what looks good for one programmer may look like crap for another. Of course some rules are very basic (like not letting code be longer then the width of a normal screen) and should always be followed (I think)
What is the width of a "normal" screen? I've always liked to think that the standard is an 80 column CRT or printed page. Thus, I don't like to see code extend beyond the 79th column. Apparently that standard isn't true of developers where I work. I've seen lines of code that extend out to almost 200 characters in width. It absolutely drives me batty. Asking the other developers to limit their code line lengths hasn't helped. It's funny because the so-called coding standard here stipulates some guidelines which seem inane to me, but says nothing about the maximum length of a line of code.
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If everyone is working for the same company they should all be following the same standard. This alleviates (mostly) the problem of relativity. Of course, getting everyone to agree and follow the standard is a completely different problem.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
If you are talking internaly in a company I agree but I thought the OP was talking generaly. And yes getting everyone to agree is not always easy, fortunatly for me I was at the startup of the .NET department in my company (and was the only one in it for 8 months) so I got to do what I want ;P (and make the company standard)
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Sucks to be you. SOP here is that if you're required to say in for a working lunch (not billable time) the manager(s) responsible buy a meal (typically pizza). Which naturally triggers griping about management equating 1hr of work with $5 of pizza whenever they do it for something we don't want to attend. :rolleyes:
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
dan neely wrote:
Sucks to be you.
if we work through lunch we don't get paid for it. :) manditory lunch time, but not manditory time off for it. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I take care to ensure the aesthetics of my code. That spacing and formatting is consistent. I don't care if I'm writing throw away code or production code. The code should always look neat and tidy. Why don't other programmers do the same??? OK, I'm sure there are some out there. And yes, there are code beautifiers, so who really cares, right? What's your thoughts on whether code should look good, in terms of spacing, formatting, structure, etc.? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Why don't other programmers do the same
Others do :-) I try and use a consistent style no matter what kind of code I am writing. I don't always succeed but I try.
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together - F. Burns