Legal Issues
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What do you think about the following two scenarios?
- Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
- Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
Here MATLAB is used just for the example (substitute it for any large and expensive software).
Rahul Sindhu
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What do you think about the following two scenarios?
- Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
- Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
Here MATLAB is used just for the example (substitute it for any large and expensive software).
Rahul Sindhu
rahul_sindhu wrote:
# Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
Compelling them to reveal source code would be an expensive proposition. It involves lawyers, and could take YEARS. Consider the SCO vs Novell case as an example. That dragged on for what - five years so far? And it's STILL not completely over.
rahul_sindhu wrote:
# Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
I would think that as long as you do the work on your system and don't hand out copies of MATLab, you're perfectly within your legal rights to use it as a tool for business (and charge accordingly). After all, you're merely providing a service.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
What do you think about the following two scenarios?
- Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
- Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
Here MATLAB is used just for the example (substitute it for any large and expensive software).
Rahul Sindhu
There are no free lawyers here. Any advice you get will be worth precisely what you paid for it. 1(a) If you have proof, hire a lawyer and ask him how to proceed. 1(b) No proof? Forget about it, you're screwed (or just plain wrong). 2. Read the Matlab license. have a Lawyer read the license. Ask the Lawyer the question you posed here. without doing this, the only possible answer is: Probably not (it was after all a single-user license, and I'm betting the EULA defines that pretty strictly). A more relevant question might be:"Is there a market for such a service, regardless of how it is implemented".
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There are no free lawyers here. Any advice you get will be worth precisely what you paid for it. 1(a) If you have proof, hire a lawyer and ask him how to proceed. 1(b) No proof? Forget about it, you're screwed (or just plain wrong). 2. Read the Matlab license. have a Lawyer read the license. Ask the Lawyer the question you posed here. without doing this, the only possible answer is: Probably not (it was after all a single-user license, and I'm betting the EULA defines that pretty strictly). A more relevant question might be:"Is there a market for such a service, regardless of how it is implemented".
Rob Graham wrote:
No proof? Forget about it, you're screwed (or just plain wrong).
Do things really work that way- are you saying that if i hack into google and copy all their code, then i can create a new website and take google's market? do you think google will allow such a thing, considering the fact that both the sites now produce the same search result for the same query. are people at google dumb?
Rob Graham wrote:
I'm betting the EULA defines that pretty strictly.
EULA certainly defines it clearly It seems you just understood the half part. What if i claim the 'problems of other people' to be my problems. Why can't such a cast occur. THE PROBLEMS POSTED AT THE WEBSITE ARE NOW MY PROBLEMS. Further: I'm not talkin about a "market share" for the service, Its just a general question about hiring lawyers: An engineer asking for help form a lawyer? I consider that to be the last option, I’d rather ask fellow programmers. and why pay when you can get advice for free ;P
Rahul Sindhu
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rahul_sindhu wrote:
# Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
Compelling them to reveal source code would be an expensive proposition. It involves lawyers, and could take YEARS. Consider the SCO vs Novell case as an example. That dragged on for what - five years so far? And it's STILL not completely over.
rahul_sindhu wrote:
# Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
I would think that as long as you do the work on your system and don't hand out copies of MATLab, you're perfectly within your legal rights to use it as a tool for business (and charge accordingly). After all, you're merely providing a service.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Compelling them to reveal source code would be an expensive proposition. It involves lawyers, and could take YEARS.
Unfortunately it still happens. I'm the 'principle witness' in a patent infringement suit against my employer. We have been compelled by the court to supply the complainant's legal team copies of all of our source code for three products, along with installation CD's and instructions for running the applications. This is after we've already supplied all of the specifications, meeting notes, e-mails, and other design materials. Frankly, IMO, it's the simplest way to commit theft of intellectual property. Accuse another company of it first :mad:.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Rob Graham wrote:
No proof? Forget about it, you're screwed (or just plain wrong).
Do things really work that way- are you saying that if i hack into google and copy all their code, then i can create a new website and take google's market? do you think google will allow such a thing, considering the fact that both the sites now produce the same search result for the same query. are people at google dumb?
Rob Graham wrote:
I'm betting the EULA defines that pretty strictly.
EULA certainly defines it clearly It seems you just understood the half part. What if i claim the 'problems of other people' to be my problems. Why can't such a cast occur. THE PROBLEMS POSTED AT THE WEBSITE ARE NOW MY PROBLEMS. Further: I'm not talkin about a "market share" for the service, Its just a general question about hiring lawyers: An engineer asking for help form a lawyer? I consider that to be the last option, I’d rather ask fellow programmers. and why pay when you can get advice for free ;P
Rahul Sindhu
rahul_sindhu wrote:
and why pay when you can get advice for free
You go into a supermarket, there are two tins of beans (I know, a whole supermarket woth only 2 tins of beans :rolleyes: ) One of the tins costs 8p, the other tin costs 30p. Do you go ahead and buy the unmarked tin of 8p beans? Or do you spend the extra money for the 30p beans with the knowledge that these beans probably won't kill you? I don't even like beans that much, but if it where me, I'd go across the street to the other supermarket and get the beans in some 3 for 2 offer. I think you see my point anyway.
My current favourite word is: Nipple!
-SK Genius
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What do you think about the following two scenarios?
- Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
- Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
Here MATLAB is used just for the example (substitute it for any large and expensive software).
Rahul Sindhu
2. You can use MATLAB as a tool in providing a service. If you are talking about distributing code produced using MATLAB the source code is yours, it is a matter of what the run time requirements are for others to use that source code. Elaine :rose:
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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rahul_sindhu wrote:
and why pay when you can get advice for free
You go into a supermarket, there are two tins of beans (I know, a whole supermarket woth only 2 tins of beans :rolleyes: ) One of the tins costs 8p, the other tin costs 30p. Do you go ahead and buy the unmarked tin of 8p beans? Or do you spend the extra money for the 30p beans with the knowledge that these beans probably won't kill you? I don't even like beans that much, but if it where me, I'd go across the street to the other supermarket and get the beans in some 3 for 2 offer. I think you see my point anyway.
My current favourite word is: Nipple!
-SK Genius
SK Genius wrote:
You go into a supermarket, there are two tins of beans (I know, a whole supermarket woth only 2 tins of beans ) One of the tins costs 8p, the other tin costs 30p. Do you go ahead and buy the unmarked tin of 8p beans? Or do you spend the extra money for the 30p beans with the knowledge that these beans probably won't kill you?...
If I can get a look at the beans, and use my knowledge and experience to judge the quality (look at them, smell them, etc.) and arrive at the conclusion that the 8p beans are perfect I will buy them. On the other hand if I suspect even the 30p beans to be garbage, I wouldn't buy them (and it seems you will). Here (and you probably cannot see it) I can take a good look at the advice/beans.
Rahul Sindhu
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What do you think about the following two scenarios?
- Suppose that I know that an employee of company XYZ stole my code (consider both cases (1) I have proof of it (stealing), (2) I don't have proof). I now suspect the XYZ to be using my code without my permission. QUESTION: Can I legally (assume law of any country) instruct XYZ to reveal all of its source code, so that I can verify whether my code is being used. In other words is there any way in which a court can issue such an action?
- Suppose I bought a single user license of MATLAB. Can I now use it to SOLVE problems of other people? Assume that due to SOMEREASON these people can access MATLAB ONLY through me (they are not allowed to sit on my computer, only I work on the computer). Can I now charge these people for solving the problems, will it be illegal? (I certainly can do it in an isolated environment). Can I reveal this to public? If yes, can I make this process automated? Suppose I created a C# web app. which provides an interface between MATLAB and the people accessing the internet. Will it be legal to charge them (what if I claim that the system was not automated and all the requests that were received by the site were manually solved by me and they were my problems)?
Here MATLAB is used just for the example (substitute it for any large and expensive software).
Rahul Sindhu
Every software has it's own licensing scheme so you'll need to check with the vendor of the software.
Todd Smith
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Rob Graham wrote:
No proof? Forget about it, you're screwed (or just plain wrong).
Do things really work that way- are you saying that if i hack into google and copy all their code, then i can create a new website and take google's market? do you think google will allow such a thing, considering the fact that both the sites now produce the same search result for the same query. are people at google dumb?
Rob Graham wrote:
I'm betting the EULA defines that pretty strictly.
EULA certainly defines it clearly It seems you just understood the half part. What if i claim the 'problems of other people' to be my problems. Why can't such a cast occur. THE PROBLEMS POSTED AT THE WEBSITE ARE NOW MY PROBLEMS. Further: I'm not talkin about a "market share" for the service, Its just a general question about hiring lawyers: An engineer asking for help form a lawyer? I consider that to be the last option, I’d rather ask fellow programmers. and why pay when you can get advice for free ;P
Rahul Sindhu
rahul_sindhu wrote:
An engineer asking for help form a lawyer? I consider that to be the last option, I’d rather ask fellow programmers. You, sir are an idiot. I suppose you ask musicians for medical advice as well then.
rahul_sindhu wrote:
and why pay when you can get advice for free
As I said, the advice you get will be worth precisely what you paid for it.
rahul_sindhu wrote:
do you think google will allow such a thing, considering the fact that both the sites now produce the same search result for the same query. are people at google dumb
You are presuming that Google Would NOT be able to prove you copied their data, and that nothing you did would violate any of theitr patents, both of which are unlikely in the scenario you describe. However if YOU have no proof another copied from YOU , then there is notheing YOU can do.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Compelling them to reveal source code would be an expensive proposition. It involves lawyers, and could take YEARS.
Unfortunately it still happens. I'm the 'principle witness' in a patent infringement suit against my employer. We have been compelled by the court to supply the complainant's legal team copies of all of our source code for three products, along with installation CD's and instructions for running the applications. This is after we've already supplied all of the specifications, meeting notes, e-mails, and other design materials. Frankly, IMO, it's the simplest way to commit theft of intellectual property. Accuse another company of it first :mad:.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Unfortunately it still happens. I'm the 'principle witness' in a patent infringement suit against my employer. We have been compelled by the court to supply the complainant's legal team copies of all of our source code for three products, along with installation CD's and instructions for running the applications. This is after we've already supplied all of the specifications, meeting notes, e-mails, and other design materials. Frankly, IMO, it's the simplest way to commit theft of intellectual property. Accuse another company of it first .
I'm very surprised that your lawyers didn't jump on this by insisting that a third party do the code comparison, with strict non-disclosure attached. That allows the complainant to have their theory tested, and keeps the complainant from benefiting by seeing your secrets.
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Unfortunately it still happens. I'm the 'principle witness' in a patent infringement suit against my employer. We have been compelled by the court to supply the complainant's legal team copies of all of our source code for three products, along with installation CD's and instructions for running the applications. This is after we've already supplied all of the specifications, meeting notes, e-mails, and other design materials. Frankly, IMO, it's the simplest way to commit theft of intellectual property. Accuse another company of it first .
I'm very surprised that your lawyers didn't jump on this by insisting that a third party do the code comparison, with strict non-disclosure attached. That allows the complainant to have their theory tested, and keeps the complainant from benefiting by seeing your secrets.
Unfortunately the infringement is based upon a feature the software provides, rather than the actual implementation. The purpose of the source code examination is to verify that the software implements the feature in the manner described by our design documentation. For this reason, there's no other software to be compared against, which would actually be a case of copyright violation rather than patent infringement.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
Unfortunately the infringement is based upon a feature the software provides, rather than the actual implementation. The purpose of the source code examination is to verify that the software implements the feature in the manner described by our design documentation. For this reason, there's no other software to be compared against, which would actually be a case of copyright violation rather than patent infringement.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Unfortunately the infringement is based upon a feature the software provides, rather than the actual implementation. The purpose of the source code examination is to verify that the software implements the feature in the manner described by our design documentation. For this reason, there's no other software to be compared against, which would actually be a case of copyright violation rather than patent infringement.
In order for a feature to be present in your software, it has to perform a function transforming its environment to another state. Running the software so that the function is performed and its effect demonstrated establishes whether the feature exists and whether its effect matches the effect of the feature described in the software patent (and this feature MUST be described in the patent for it to be covered). Therefore, the source code examination is unnecessary, and allowing your competitor to see it compromises your code to no useful purpose. Even if this weren't true, an independent expert under a non-disclosure agreement can make the same assessment as your competitor as to whether the feature exists (code function analysis is not a skill limited to your competitor's programmers). Your lawyers have been had, or the judge has been had, and your competitor will see your source code as a result. I have two nephews who were reviewers for the patent office. Based on their own descriptions of how things operate in that office, I'm surprised no lawyer has considered a class action to declare all software patents null and void until the patent office adds to its staff sufficient software expertise to make sure patent assignments are made by software experts only. Good luck to you.
