The 30 Day "No IDE" Challenge
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Just browsing the SVN checkout and tinkerin', one thing that comes up right away, a pet peeve of mine , building the solution results in 8 compiler warnings. Most of 'em are easy to fix. Will give you some real feedback as time goes one. Hopefully this weekend I can give it a real spin.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Feelings-Based Morality of the Secular World The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Just browsing the SVN checkout and tinkerin', one thing that comes up right away, a pet peeve of mine , building the solution results in 8 compiler warnings. Most of 'em are easy to fix. Will give you some real feedback as time goes one. Hopefully this weekend I can give it a real spin.
Ahh, well you're probably looking at the trunk branch--that's version 1--my old code. Right now, I'm working on v2 on the stable branch, and the difference between the two versions is anything but subtle. :) V1 was what I call the 'hobbyist' version, and V2 is the product-grade version. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look at it!
Do you know...LinFu?
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May we use .bat files, or do we have to memorize the command line options and type them in everytime? :)
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on! A post a day, keeps the white coats away!
Steve Echols wrote:
May we use .bat files, or do we have to memorize the command line options and type them in everytime?
Command line: Good :) IDE: Bad :P If you can memorize every command line option, then I shall bow down to your l33t skillz. :laugh:
Do you know...LinFu?
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Judah Himango wrote:
Just browsing the SVN checkout and tinkerin', one thing that comes up right away, a pet peeve of mine , building the solution results in 8 compiler warnings. Most of 'em are easy to fix. Will give you some real feedback as time goes one. Hopefully this weekend I can give it a real spin.
Ahh, well you're probably looking at the trunk branch--that's version 1--my old code. Right now, I'm working on v2 on the stable branch, and the difference between the two versions is anything but subtle. :) V1 was what I call the 'hobbyist' version, and V2 is the product-grade version. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look at it!
Do you know...LinFu?
Ah, ok. I suppose I should checkout V2 then! :) I saw your blog saying how much effort you put into testing and documenting in V2.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Feelings-Based Morality of the Secular World The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I never used Visual Studio until late 2003, until then I was doing all C on OpenVMS with embedded SQL (Pro*C). (On OpenVMS, I still use EDT.) In college I used Turbo Pascal, Turbo C, and Turbo C++, but I didn't use them on the job. I use EDIT and the command-line compiler (C#) most of the time at home.
C:\WINDOWS>edit /?
MS-DOS Editor Version 2.0.026 Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1995.
I wouldn't attempt to write a WinForms application without the designer; but for library and unit test code, even Windows (and Web?) Services, there's no need for Visual Studio.
Philip Laureano wrote:
-You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects.
Are you aware that Visual Studio can be used a command-line tool?
C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\Common7\IDE>devenv /?
Microsoft (R) Visual Studio Version 9.0.21022.8.
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp. All rights reserved.Use:
devenv [solutionfile | projectfile | anyfile.ext] [switches]PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Are you aware that Visual Studio can be used a command-line tool?
I didn't know about that one. I always assumed that it was just a very polished frontend GUI for a compiler. I'll definitely look into it!
Do you know...LinFu?
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Steve Echols wrote:
May we use .bat files, or do we have to memorize the command line options and type them in everytime?
Command line: Good :) IDE: Bad :P If you can memorize every command line option, then I shall bow down to your l33t skillz. :laugh:
Do you know...LinFu?
Philip Laureano wrote:
If you can memorize every command line option, then I shall bow down to your l33t skillz.
Maybe back in the MASM days, but not anymore. :)
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on! A post a day, keeps the white coats away!
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
It takes a certain mindset to do this challenge. Not everyone would see a point in it. I have moved away from using Borland Delphi / MS Visual Studio / MyEclipse to using Emacs and GNU compilers. Sure some people might say that's retarded but like I said, not everyone finds it exciting. Emacs and the GNU compilers are available on pretty much every platform, so if I have a terminal running pretty much any OS, I'm in business. I don't miss IntelliSense all that much. It forces me to look at the online help, and there are so many nuggets of information there to make it worth my while. Alan
Code In Peace!
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A development environment with templates as part of the language? Nice!
Do you know...LinFu?
Philip Laureano wrote:
A development environment with templates as part of the language? Nice!
What about C++? Seriously though, Clarion's a nice idea but painfully implemented, total POS. Did some work in it about a year & a half ago. Trying to anything "outside the square" is really difficult and documentation is practically non-existent. Looks like Clarion# might improve the situation somewhat :) but I'll leave it to others to determine that for themselves, once bitten ...
T-Mac-Oz "When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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You mean everyone hear doesn't do that already? I was under the impression that the sissies used notepad and the real men... Well the real mean use the command line. I gyet ner ideer whuctch yoo beeein dreekin' but if'n yu dunt myind sheerin' I be mutch abliged! ;P
code-frog wrote:
Well the real mean use the command line.
C:> copy con HelloWorld.cpp ...^z :-D
T-Mac-Oz "When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
I stopped using the visual designer for my web apps some time ago. At first I used to 'draw' pages, now I code them entirely by hand and almost never use the design view in Visual Studio. Syntax highlighting, IntelliSense + R# is all I need. :)
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
Some of us have been programming long enough that what you are describing was our day to day life for many years. I don't know about anyone else but you can take my ide when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. :)
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
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Philip Laureano wrote:
You've got a point there--the problem is that I don't have the luxury of using VS2008 in a non-windows environment, and I need to learn how to do without the IDE and learn how to build apps with the command line tool (which is probably going to be nant, in this case). I realize that there are platform-independent IDEs as well, but I want the build process to be consistent despite whatever platform I use.
MonoDevelop support MsBuild file. csproj are MsBuild file! Solution: work with VS on Windows and #develop / Mono on other platform and maintain your project with MsBuild, it's all good!
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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What's your point? Could I work with vim to develop .NET project? absolutely! Is vim or eclipse the best (i.e. more productive) IDE to do .NET developement? absolutely NOT! while I'm at it Eclipse might be the best IDE for Java, but the author seemed to be biased towards C# (as I am) (and as were my answers) ...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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If I had a decent text editor I wouldn't mind manually typing all of my code. I don't really rely on wizards. The only thing I really get from an IDE besides the incredible features of the modern debugger is the use of intellisense as a spelling tool. Depending on which .NET library you use or which third-party tool you use it is impossible to tell just which naming convention is in use. I can guarantee one thing however, if we all developed with a text editor instead of an IDE that crap called properties would have never been introduced.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I can guarantee one thing however, if we all developed with a text editor instead of an IDE that crap called properties would have never been introduced.
So using getX() and setX() like in Java looks nicer to you?
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What's your point? Could I work with vim to develop .NET project? absolutely! Is vim or eclipse the best (i.e. more productive) IDE to do .NET developement? absolutely NOT! while I'm at it Eclipse might be the best IDE for Java, but the author seemed to be biased towards C# (as I am) (and as were my answers) ...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
I did this at work some years ago, for far longer than 30 days, while supporting/developing C/C++ and Java products on UNIX. I started out with vi and progressed to emacs for all editing, then used the cc command or a Kshell script (that I wrote myself) to do the compile/link phase. Not really that much of a challenge - but then I did start by using a three-finger hand punch on Hollerith cards, and even a one-prong paper-tape punch, to generate control information into the first mainframe I worked on. Anyone remember the LEO-III?
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
You seem to have got quite a lot of fairly negative responses. Well, I just wanted to say that I like the idea. I've only ever really developed in a world of IDEs. From when I started vb4 sometime in my school years. I think the idea of removing the IDE from your developing will help you learn some of the skills that the older generation of programmers have. I think you'll gain a better knowledge of the framework. I know when I come back to do something I often rely on intellisense to remind me of the exact name of a function or class. Without an IDE, you'll have to work from memory, so you'll improve that memory. Also, I have written custom code snippets for things like the dispose pattern, which means, if I'm honest I'm not sure I could type out the dispose pattern without a mistake without referring to my snippet. What the IDE has done for us is removed the need to remember all the little details. While this is good for a lot of development, when we start to rely on it, it can become detrimental. I might join you in going IDE-less at home for a while. Good luck.
Simon
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
Seems really pointless and of no interest to me, but at one point I had TextPad set up in such a way that I could do C++ and D builds. I sometimes do NSIS development this way. I think a huge advantage of IDE's is being able to step around in unknown code with the debugger (CodeProject articles come to mind) to see how the code works in order to "learn from" and adapt. Isn't that kind of the ... uh ... point of CodeProject?
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Philip Laureano wrote:
So what do you guys think?
I think it is a stupid idea. This is the way things used to be done. Try something like building an application in binary if you want a challenge. Been there, done that.
Gary
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
My personal projects tend to be written in Python or Haskell - so no IDEs for me :-) (yeah, I know there *are* Python IDEs, I just prefer TextMate on my Mac). It helps that both languages have an interactive shell so you can try out fragments before committing them to 'real' bytes in a file. Also helps that the build experience is relatively trivial for both; Python doesn't need building, while for Haskell, the de-facto standard compiler (ghc) has a built in 'make' system that does automatic dependency checking. So, if I have a whole load of Haskell files, with the entry-point in MyApp.hs, I can just use
ghc --make MyApp
and it'll work out what needs to be compiled, how to link etc etc..
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I did this at work some years ago, for far longer than 30 days, while supporting/developing C/C++ and Java products on UNIX. I started out with vi and progressed to emacs for all editing, then used the cc command or a Kshell script (that I wrote myself) to do the compile/link phase. Not really that much of a challenge - but then I did start by using a three-finger hand punch on Hollerith cards, and even a one-prong paper-tape punch, to generate control information into the first mainframe I worked on. Anyone remember the LEO-III?
I've done this too, several years ago (very late 90's) when developing a C/C++ application. error rates were very high for a variety of reasons - sloppiness was one of them. We removed the compiler and made the developers give their code to a build manager for compilation. It took about a week of swearing and frayed tempers but their quality improved dramatically because it really made them think about what they were doing. By the end of the week code was compiling and working first time. We even had a pipeline going, with fixes, additions and tests all being shoved down the pipe. Most agreed it was a worthwhile exercise and they certainly never forgot it. Those of us with grey (or no) hair will have worked like this long ago. I remember in the mid 80's it took more than 24 hours to completely compile aircraft simulations for array processors (what?), and the only editor being EDT or VI. Aye, we were lucky.
