The 30 Day "No IDE" Challenge
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What's your point? Could I work with vim to develop .NET project? absolutely! Is vim or eclipse the best (i.e. more productive) IDE to do .NET developement? absolutely NOT! while I'm at it Eclipse might be the best IDE for Java, but the author seemed to be biased towards C# (as I am) (and as were my answers) ...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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If I had a decent text editor I wouldn't mind manually typing all of my code. I don't really rely on wizards. The only thing I really get from an IDE besides the incredible features of the modern debugger is the use of intellisense as a spelling tool. Depending on which .NET library you use or which third-party tool you use it is impossible to tell just which naming convention is in use. I can guarantee one thing however, if we all developed with a text editor instead of an IDE that crap called properties would have never been introduced.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I can guarantee one thing however, if we all developed with a text editor instead of an IDE that crap called properties would have never been introduced.
So using getX() and setX() like in Java looks nicer to you?
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What's your point? Could I work with vim to develop .NET project? absolutely! Is vim or eclipse the best (i.e. more productive) IDE to do .NET developement? absolutely NOT! while I'm at it Eclipse might be the best IDE for Java, but the author seemed to be biased towards C# (as I am) (and as were my answers) ...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
I did this at work some years ago, for far longer than 30 days, while supporting/developing C/C++ and Java products on UNIX. I started out with vi and progressed to emacs for all editing, then used the cc command or a Kshell script (that I wrote myself) to do the compile/link phase. Not really that much of a challenge - but then I did start by using a three-finger hand punch on Hollerith cards, and even a one-prong paper-tape punch, to generate control information into the first mainframe I worked on. Anyone remember the LEO-III?
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
You seem to have got quite a lot of fairly negative responses. Well, I just wanted to say that I like the idea. I've only ever really developed in a world of IDEs. From when I started vb4 sometime in my school years. I think the idea of removing the IDE from your developing will help you learn some of the skills that the older generation of programmers have. I think you'll gain a better knowledge of the framework. I know when I come back to do something I often rely on intellisense to remind me of the exact name of a function or class. Without an IDE, you'll have to work from memory, so you'll improve that memory. Also, I have written custom code snippets for things like the dispose pattern, which means, if I'm honest I'm not sure I could type out the dispose pattern without a mistake without referring to my snippet. What the IDE has done for us is removed the need to remember all the little details. While this is good for a lot of development, when we start to rely on it, it can become detrimental. I might join you in going IDE-less at home for a while. Good luck.
Simon
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
Seems really pointless and of no interest to me, but at one point I had TextPad set up in such a way that I could do C++ and D builds. I sometimes do NSIS development this way. I think a huge advantage of IDE's is being able to step around in unknown code with the debugger (CodeProject articles come to mind) to see how the code works in order to "learn from" and adapt. Isn't that kind of the ... uh ... point of CodeProject?
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Philip Laureano wrote:
So what do you guys think?
I think it is a stupid idea. This is the way things used to be done. Try something like building an application in binary if you want a challenge. Been there, done that.
Gary
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
My personal projects tend to be written in Python or Haskell - so no IDEs for me :-) (yeah, I know there *are* Python IDEs, I just prefer TextMate on my Mac). It helps that both languages have an interactive shell so you can try out fragments before committing them to 'real' bytes in a file. Also helps that the build experience is relatively trivial for both; Python doesn't need building, while for Haskell, the de-facto standard compiler (ghc) has a built in 'make' system that does automatic dependency checking. So, if I have a whole load of Haskell files, with the entry-point in MyApp.hs, I can just use
ghc --make MyApp
and it'll work out what needs to be compiled, how to link etc etc..
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I did this at work some years ago, for far longer than 30 days, while supporting/developing C/C++ and Java products on UNIX. I started out with vi and progressed to emacs for all editing, then used the cc command or a Kshell script (that I wrote myself) to do the compile/link phase. Not really that much of a challenge - but then I did start by using a three-finger hand punch on Hollerith cards, and even a one-prong paper-tape punch, to generate control information into the first mainframe I worked on. Anyone remember the LEO-III?
I've done this too, several years ago (very late 90's) when developing a C/C++ application. error rates were very high for a variety of reasons - sloppiness was one of them. We removed the compiler and made the developers give their code to a build manager for compilation. It took about a week of swearing and frayed tempers but their quality improved dramatically because it really made them think about what they were doing. By the end of the week code was compiling and working first time. We even had a pipeline going, with fixes, additions and tests all being shoved down the pipe. Most agreed it was a worthwhile exercise and they certainly never forgot it. Those of us with grey (or no) hair will have worked like this long ago. I remember in the mid 80's it took more than 24 hours to completely compile aircraft simulations for array processors (what?), and the only editor being EDT or VI. Aye, we were lucky.
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What's your point? Could I work with vim to develop .NET project? absolutely! Is vim or eclipse the best (i.e. more productive) IDE to do .NET developement? absolutely NOT! while I'm at it Eclipse might be the best IDE for Java, but the author seemed to be biased towards C# (as I am) (and as were my answers) ...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
Oops, replied to the wrong message. Let's put it this way: I think Microsoft environments are well suited for Microsoft platforms (.NET) and APIs (MFC). I cannot imaging programming VB in notepad, though it is feasible. Merely considering the programming languages themselves (C/C++, Python, Java and so on, even HTML, PHP or others), (g)vim is simply perfect: lightweight, powerful, stable and pretty. And the cherry on top of the pie: you don't need a mouse at all!!
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
30 days without fried food I get. 30 days without alcolhol I get (under protest). 30 days without drugs I get (non starter - I must be at 10 years now). 30 days without sex I .. actually no I don't get that one .. moving on. WHY??? "Kicking the IDE habit"??? .. LOL .. I kind of think thats a good habit. How about 30 days without writing grubby work-arounds :) (Good luck .. I hope your ulcers recover soon :))
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
That's how I work anyway. Textpad as the editor, and command line tools to compile.
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as I have explained to the command line kid, I am fully capable going without advanced tools. On the other hand I have written editors rapid design and code completion systems even compilers. I think I have earned the right to use the latest tools to make my life easier. :) go for it, but I will pass.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
It's like stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork and exclaiming how good it feels when you stop :rolleyes:.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I think I recall that C9 was the op code for "ret" for a z80 ... from "poking" bytes into a Sinclair micro with the upgraded 16kb module and cassette tape drive. Took several days to get a software divide to work. Never again.
Pshaw. Wrote a floating point square root routine in microcode in octal. Had to remember DMA refreshes on dynamic RAM so it maintained its contents. HP-21MX computer. A 16-bit screamer, discrete TTL logic back in 1980. I'd do it again. I'm sick tho. ;-)
Gary
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Some of us have been programming long enough that what you are describing was our day to day life for many years. I don't know about anyone else but you can take my ide when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. :)
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
Indeed. I remember all too well doing embedded programming with just a command line compiler (no debugger). I also had a suite of MS-DOS applications I built and maintained using command line tools (no IDE, no debugger).
Software Zen:
delete this; -
If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
Like others have said, all you'll really gain from this is a better memorization of the language and API since you won't have Intellisense, and a better knowledge of the compilation, which could be useful. In the long run, this seems kind of...pointless. Also, I think it depends on what you're building. This would be fine for class libraries and some web sites, but I'll bow to the person who writes a WinForms front-end consuming a WF back-end without touching the IDE. (I'd also have you committed, but that's another story).
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You seem to have got quite a lot of fairly negative responses. Well, I just wanted to say that I like the idea. I've only ever really developed in a world of IDEs. From when I started vb4 sometime in my school years. I think the idea of removing the IDE from your developing will help you learn some of the skills that the older generation of programmers have. I think you'll gain a better knowledge of the framework. I know when I come back to do something I often rely on intellisense to remind me of the exact name of a function or class. Without an IDE, you'll have to work from memory, so you'll improve that memory. Also, I have written custom code snippets for things like the dispose pattern, which means, if I'm honest I'm not sure I could type out the dispose pattern without a mistake without referring to my snippet. What the IDE has done for us is removed the need to remember all the little details. While this is good for a lot of development, when we start to rely on it, it can become detrimental. I might join you in going IDE-less at home for a while. Good luck.
Simon
Simon Stevens wrote:
You seem to have got quite a lot of fairly negative responses. Well, I just wanted to say that I like the idea.
Thanks. :) It might be a waste of time for some, but that still doesn't change the way I think about it. If I can learn something out of the experience, then it really doesn't matter what everyone else says.
Simon Stevens wrote:
I think the idea of removing the IDE from your developing will help you learn some of the skills that the older generation of programmers have. I think you'll gain a better knowledge of the framework. I know when I come back to do something I often rely on intellisense to remind me of the exact name of a function or class. Without an IDE, you'll have to work from memory, so you'll improve that memory.
...and that's exactly what I'm getting at--I wasn't born during the days when the old timers had to hack away at console terminals just to get a compile going, and even if they say that I'm already doing that", what about me? Like everyone else here, I want to be a better programmer. There's no way I can get the same amount of experience or knowledge unless I do it on my own, and frankly, I don't care if the questions I ask might seem "stupid" to others--at least I learn from it, and I make absolutely no apologies for asking those questions.
Simon Stevens wrote:
What the IDE has done for us is removed the need to remember all the little details. While this is good for a lot of development, when we start to rely on it, it can become detrimental.
Well, it's that detrimental dependency on an IDE that bothers me. I want to understand what is underneath the IDE in the same way some programmers (like myself) study IL to understand the higher level CLR languages like C#, and VB.NET. You can go through your entire career without ever knowing IL, but for those of us that *do* know about it, it really changes the way you think about the framework itself. So if I get flamed for it, then so be it. :cool:
Do you know...LinFu?
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Like others have said, all you'll really gain from this is a better memorization of the language and API since you won't have Intellisense, and a better knowledge of the compilation, which could be useful. In the long run, this seems kind of...pointless. Also, I think it depends on what you're building. This would be fine for class libraries and some web sites, but I'll bow to the person who writes a WinForms front-end consuming a WF back-end without touching the IDE. (I'd also have you committed, but that's another story).
JHubSharp wrote:
Also, I think it depends on what you're building. This would be fine for class libraries and some web sites, but I'll bow to the person who writes a WinForms front-end consuming a WF back-end without touching the IDE. (I'd also have you committed, but that's another story).
It's safe to say that I don't think I'll ever write a WinForms GUI by hand--even I have to admit that's pointless. In my case, I rarely make any GUI apps, so creating your own class libraries without an IDE isn't as suicidal as say, trying to manually plot the screen coordinates of a WinForms control on a form. So yeah, you can call me crazy, and it makes me write better software in the end, I don't mind being called a loony. :cool:
Do you know...LinFu?
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If you've ever watched this show[^], you've probably seen people depriving themselves from the most common things that they take for granted. Now, aside from your day job, what would happen if you forced yourself to use only command-line build tools (such as NAnt, NUnit, and MSbuild) for your personal projects at home? At the end of thirty days, how would that change the way you write code? Here are the rules: -You cannot use any IDE to build your personal code (that means no VS2008, SharpDevelop, MonoDevelop, or any other IDE out there). "Personal code" is any code that you write as a hobby. * -You *can* use graphical text editors with syntax highlighting, but they CANNOT have any form of Intellisense or code completion. -You must use either NAnt or MSBuild, or the command line compiler for your favorite language to build your projects. *You can, of course, use any tool you wish if it is a work-related task. Everyone here has to make a living, somehow. :) Right now, this idea is just on the drawing board, but I figured that I'd post the basic rules for the challenge to the CP community and see if I can get it refined before I take the challenge myself. Depending on the feedback, I'll either blog about it or put up a series of articles on CP regarding "Kicking the IDE Habit". So what do you guys think? Do the rules seem fair enough? Anyone else want to take the challenge with me?
Do you know...LinFu?
Certainly a worthwhile exercise. If I were stripped out of Visual Sutdio I would be in the mud. Sometimes I feel I don't know how to code as VS does it all for me. What If I couldn't select the method on the Intellisense list? I think that is great exercise, requires some balls but is worth a try. I bet you will (at least I would) end up running back to those old books and help files to figure out what is that little thing that you used to do all the time but you can't remember now (HAHA NO intellisense for you and no drag'n drop). I think this way you can even figure out better ways to do the same thing. Nice initiative, I just don't know If I have the guts to do it, besides doing very simple console applications using C. Regards
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I can guarantee one thing however, if we all developed with a text editor instead of an IDE that crap called properties would have never been introduced.
So using getX() and setX() like in Java looks nicer to you?
Try using a text only editor for a few weeks and get back to me.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
Most of my CS classes required text only. While the C++ we could use the MS IDE as the University has a license for all students for Visual Studio all of the work was on Linux so we still had to use gcc and javac for most of it typing code in vi. Then the prof's would through a curve and just pick random languages, comparative languages was a real PITA. What you will find when leaving the IDE you will quickly learn a lot more of the API by memory. Combine that with faster typing skills and you will really pound some code out. However, I would suggest Java for breaking the IDE habit and not C#. The I have found Java documentation to be so much better. You will need a lot of documentation right at your fingertips.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
all of the work was on Linux so we still had to use gcc and javac for most of it typing code in vi.
I still used visual studio as my editor for my slowlaris projects in college. VS6 -> leechftp -> telnet -> gcc
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall