The World has gone mad...
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patterns programming is just another attempt at standardization of methods, this time on algorithms rather than storage. Just as you would recognize the reference to hashes or lists for storage, once you learn the terms you will probably recognize that you have been using them all already, just not in a standard way. So why do patterns? Well, why did we standardize storage? Right now our company has two hash tables. 1) mine 2) someone elses. That someone else is currently debugging his because of multi-threading issues, mine currently is working massively parallel. Duplication of work, and misunderstandings in storage methods, as well as poor implimentations encouraged storage method standardization over the years. Not that everyone is perfect there either (obviously), still the closer everyone comes to standardization with each others work the easier it is to understand someone else's code. patterns are just names to algorithmic pieces of programming code. Not so different than naming nodes interlinked as a doubly linked list. :) most programmers, even the older ones would recognized the names of queues lists arrays and stacks without batting an eye. Patterns are just new names for old methods. :) P.S. I am 43. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
modified on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 6:31 PM
anybody besides me and the OP think that these "common methods" were very poorly named? hash? list? i get that. templateFactorySingleton... Well, back to google again...
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anybody besides me and the OP think that these "common methods" were very poorly named? hash? list? i get that. templateFactorySingleton... Well, back to google again...
Steve Hazel wrote:
hash? list? i get that.
Well.... they are common because they have been around so long they have become common. However. Just as an example. Hash is not so common. :) You have true hashes, and bucket hashes. So when is a hash a hash? when we declare it a hash. With lists you have single, double, and skip lists. How many people know what a skip list is? it never really made the standards.... (pity, I like them) Then you get into multi-threaded implimentations with protected latch lists (protect the attach and detach of a list member) or transactional memory, or optimistic FIFO's, etc. The names mean something to someone, but until they become as old as dirt, we don't recognize them. A template factory singleton is a single unitary existing object (singleton) that produces (factory) a variety of other objects based on some sort of template input. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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Along with ADA?
Ahoy! Martin Hughes
martin_hughes wrote:
Along with ADA?
Nope Ada became strictly a military thing. Colleges moved on to other languages rapidly. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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Steve Hazel wrote:
hash? list? i get that.
Well.... they are common because they have been around so long they have become common. However. Just as an example. Hash is not so common. :) You have true hashes, and bucket hashes. So when is a hash a hash? when we declare it a hash. With lists you have single, double, and skip lists. How many people know what a skip list is? it never really made the standards.... (pity, I like them) Then you get into multi-threaded implimentations with protected latch lists (protect the attach and detach of a list member) or transactional memory, or optimistic FIFO's, etc. The names mean something to someone, but until they become as old as dirt, we don't recognize them. A template factory singleton is a single unitary existing object (singleton) that produces (factory) a variety of other objects based on some sort of template input. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
El Corazon wrote:
So when is a hash a hash?
When it's followed by "brown" and served for breakfast :)
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State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
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El Corazon wrote:
So when is a hash a hash?
When it's followed by "brown" and served for breakfast :)
martin_hughes wrote:
When it's followed by "brown" and served for breakfast
or when you toss in 3 veggies and some left over meat and potatoes and fry them up for supper. :) still no hash standard. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
GriffinPeter wrote:
The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around
If it has, that was about 12 years ago for me.
GriffinPeter wrote:
but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk..
I doubt it. When I discovered design patterns it was a forehead slapping moment becuase I realised that I was already using some of that stuff, but I never realised it. I'd managed to come up with a fair few on my own but never had a name for it. Once I knew the nomenclature things got a lot easier.
GriffinPeter wrote:
Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish?
Well, if you prefer wordy documentation and write a paragraph of explanation where a couple of words could have done it... By the way, I'm over 30 too.
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martin_hughes wrote:
When it's followed by "brown" and served for breakfast
or when you toss in 3 veggies and some left over meat and potatoes and fry them up for supper. :) still no hash standard. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
We'd call that the Bubble and Squeak standard over here (or a variant of) :)
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We'd call that the Bubble and Squeak standard over here (or a variant of) :)
speaking of naming problems. :) sometimes I think all the English's have drifted into babble. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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speaking of naming problems. :) sometimes I think all the English's have drifted into babble. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
Yup, and then we exported it around the world - Open Source licence and all!
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State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
Try working for a government organization. I have been to meetings where I've walked away and didn't know what half the acronyms meant. :confused:
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Yup, and then we exported it around the world - Open Source licence and all!
please tell me it was reased with a Berkley license and not Gnu!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
GriffinPeter wrote:
State Pattern
Nothing but good ol' finite state machine[^], which is btw far better represented by graphs than UML.
GriffinPeter wrote:
Strategy pattern
A fancy name for selecting an algorithm at runtime. Did that with a function pointer in C, and now you just need to declare a bunch of classes for the same thing. Progress, and improvement in productivity at work ;)
GriffinPeter wrote:
Visitor pattern
An ugly workaround for languages that don't have multimethods[^]. And of course, it has nothing to do with "visiting".
GriffinPeter wrote:
BizConnector, NTier,
Never heard of them and don't want to :)
GriffinPeter wrote:
Adapter
Used to call it a "wrapper" when I was a boy.
GriffinPeter wrote:
fly weight
Just an optimization to save some memory. In fact, just by not using a garbage collector, you'll most likely never need anything like that.
GriffinPeter wrote:
Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's??
It is all about not being a programmer but becoming an "architect". Unlike programmers, architects are pretty popular among women, and we are trying to steal their title to get some. Hope it makes more sense now :)
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Male Pattern Baldness. You forgot that one. ;P
Been there, do that, and firmly believe: "If you haven't got it, flaunt it" (what little hair I have left is kept buzzed off to about 1/4 inch)
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
Here's what I've said on design patterns in the past: "Design patterns are common approaches for implementing higher level abstractions in languages that do not provide direct support for them. For example, if a design patterns book were written with the C language as its primary target, you would find patterns in it called "Polymorphism" or "Inheritance," with descriptions of how to implement those features using C. When a language evolves to provide support for a design pattern, it ceases to be a pattern and becomes a feature through which you can more easily realize a design. I don't think much about the Observer design pattern when using C# because it gives me delegates and events. On the other hand, when I write in C++ and need a notification system, I find myself writing the needed infrastructure from scratch. The Observer design pattern informs me on how this can be done. You don't hear about Visitor much in languages that provide double dispatching. Design patterns are a stepping stone in the evolution towards programming languages that provide the means for realizing higher level abstractions. They're important because they show us what we need to make our lives easier."
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"It looks like you're trying to write a resume." :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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State Pattern, Strategy pattern,Visitor pattern, BizConnector, NTier, Adapter and fly weight The world has gone buzzword mad, with all this stuff floating around, isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk.. Or are all of these buzzwords around so programmers have some buzzwords to baffle the managers with on their CV's?? Its all a waste of time imo, if you can design and code competantly, whats the point in all this pattern rubbish? Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management... *stomps off and growls in the corner*
At the communication level the problem is not patterns per se, the problem is that people talk lots about them (for example in design meetings) just to seem clever. How many times have you heard a "clever" guy talking about how he is going to use this or that pattern when there is not even a well defined problem to solve. At the programming level the problems are two: 1-People overuse them because of the false belief that if you design with patterns you are a better architect. Not all programming problems are that complex and not all complex programming problems are better solved with patterns. 2-People misuse them because they want to design with patterns before they have learnt to design using plain OO. So, for example, you get systems whose architecture is based mostly on Singletons... Of course there are great programmers using them in great ways. I´m just enumerating the problems I´ve found with their usage.
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"It looks like you're trying to write a resume." :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Now you sound like Mr. Paperclip from MS Office :)
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At the communication level the problem is not patterns per se, the problem is that people talk lots about them (for example in design meetings) just to seem clever. How many times have you heard a "clever" guy talking about how he is going to use this or that pattern when there is not even a well defined problem to solve. At the programming level the problems are two: 1-People overuse them because of the false belief that if you design with patterns you are a better architect. Not all programming problems are that complex and not all complex programming problems are better solved with patterns. 2-People misuse them because they want to design with patterns before they have learnt to design using plain OO. So, for example, you get systems whose architecture is based mostly on Singletons... Of course there are great programmers using them in great ways. I´m just enumerating the problems I´ve found with their usage.
Exactly.. All these messages seem to prove to me is that All these new buzzwords are merely the old concepts wrapped up in a colourful wrapper. Trust me I have gone through all the old ones, been programming since I was 18.. I just wonder what the point is in wrapping them up in new buzzwords.
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GriffinPeter wrote:
isnt there any substitute for good old fashioned analysis and design?? I am over 30 so this might be a case of me being an old Fart.. but all the systems I have designed and written function quite well using the "Old" methods without any of this pattern junk..
Design Patterns are nothing new. I'm well over 30 and I've been using patterns where appropriate for over a decade now.
GriffinPeter wrote:
whats the point in all this pattern rubbish?
It's merely a descriptive language that is intended to help you communicate and document the choices you took to build a system. Think of it as a way of naming your tools....Everyone knows what a wrench is, but just calling it a wrench doesn't describe all of the details.
GriffinPeter wrote:
Prehaps its time for me to retire from coding and move up to the levels of senior management...
Or, catch up with the past. The first book on programming patterns was released in 1995. The real problem that I see with pattern use it that it's use is often bragged about by people who I wouldn't hire to do data entry work.
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Absolutely agree with what the vast majority of responders have said (re the GOF book being over 10 years old now - descriptive naming for common scenarios etc). But the point Chris makes is probably more attuned to the OP's post. The simple fact of the matter is that there are a ton of developers out there (I know I've hired - briefly - some of them) who love to talk the talk and can't walk the walk. And of course this isn't restricted to patterns. Good thread :)
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