Article entitled: Memo to Europe
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
Interesting article. It illustates the large gap between the US and the rest of the world, both geographically and politically. For a country that had until recently a relatively insular policy (e.g. FDR's comments in 1934), the US is now quite happy to take on the role of 'peacekeeper' around the world. One thing I've found reading through the history books is there were ample opportunities for the Allies to 'take out Hitler', but they didn't. Why? Two reasons, better the devil (loony) you know, and there were worse devils waiting to take over. His comment "The only reason the E.U. can exist at all is because American military force defeated Nazi Germany", is actually wrong. By the US came very close to finding that the EU now could have been a Nazi Europe instead. Consider if Rommel had won the battles in Africa (which he had chances to do but was fed false intel), or the battle for Stalingrad could have been won by the Germans if they hadn't split into three battle groups, and decided to go during the Autumn winter. It was Hitler's decision not to massacre British troops on the first British attempt at storming the continent, etc. etc. So, better the devil you know by Europe's reckoning, I think. Saddam Hussain's sons are even worse than he is, and that's who he intends to take over from him. Saddam is a known quantity. Dropping a bomb on him would do more harm than good. And the US helping a 'puppet' government into power getting rid of the old one hasn't really worked has it? Look at Afghanistan. If anyone can figure out how to sort out this mess without upsetting countries, religions and economies, maybe they should run for president or Prime Minister. :-) B.
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
Good article. Correct in every way. I've always been a big fan of Andrew Sullivan. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Good article. Correct in every way. I've always been a big fan of Andrew Sullivan. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
Re: according to your profile, you live in Bosnia / Herzegovina. I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? damir_tk wrote: And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe I didn't. I gave you a reference to an article in a European newspaper written by a European. damir_tk wrote: A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Nope - not angry at all, just bemused. A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much. Mike
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
damir_tk wrote: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last year, as reported they killed a few hundreds of civilians in the refugees camps...US says it will veto any resolution against Israel in the UN about that incident...some kids survive, with there families getting killed, they are alone now...they will never forget it...and they will grow up...and will come to visit you, make no mistake about it! Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. And this so enraged the children in Saudi Arabia (who through out history have killed other Arabic peoples with utter contempt) that they grew up and flew planes into the WTC. Yeah, that really makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation. I just feel so enlightened. Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. I really feel bad that the U.S. has not attained the same true appreciation for freedom that the people of Bosnia have, given your very successful and lengthy history with the concept. You must be very proud. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
Hmm - an article full of mouth-foaming rhetoric for a Sunday evening... The light you shine on a story determines how people will see it. Yes, America defends against tyrants, terrorists and warring nations, but America has also funded and supported tyrants, terrorists and warring nations. It's a delicate balance of using the limited means available to you to produce the desired outcome. A 'means justifies the end'. America must understand that the rest of the World isn't America and that other nations and cultures may approach things differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, or weak, or even anti-Semitic. It just means there are different ways to solve problems. One thing that continues to surprise me is selective memory, where the fact that there were actually other nations involved in most of the wars that were fought is conveniently forgotten. Maybe the torch of America's pride shines so brightly that the efforts of others is hidden in the glare. Maybe other countries simply aren't that proud of the lives they ended in those stupid episodes of human history. I don't know. The thought that America, together with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Europe are working together to share intelligence and help ferret out terrorist activity is a comforting one. That America has the ability and the resources to defend not only itself, but the western world is also something I appreciate. The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me ;) cheers, Chris Maunder
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
damir_tk wrote: Come live in Europe, land of the free... You forget your own troubles. You also forget that wherever you go, we are all the same. Americans, Europeans, Australians, Asians, Russians, Africans, South Americans, Arabs and Papa New Guinenians. All the same. Break down your issues to the basic level, and you will find them wherever you go. Just as if you break down your joys, you will find them wherever you go. So instead of lashing back across the Atlantic, sort yourselves out first and raise the bar a bit. People will follow, because we are all the same. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "Winning an argument on the internet is like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics -- even though you're the champ, you're still a retard." - Kuro5hin.org Wrong but still funny
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Re: according to your profile, you live in Bosnia / Herzegovina. I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? damir_tk wrote: And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe I didn't. I gave you a reference to an article in a European newspaper written by a European. damir_tk wrote: A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Nope - not angry at all, just bemused. A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much. Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much I think the attitude isn't quite "ignore it", but more "don't get involved in the first place". All that assumes that the entity you are trying not to get involved with is thinking rationally and isn't interested in you for your own sake (as opposed to being interested in you becuase you spoke out against it). I think the it was a good point that if the US hadn't bought together the coalition it did in order to remove the Taliban then other countries would have been similarly targeted. ...and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I can't believe I was sucked into this one :( cheers, Chris Maunder
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
damir_tk wrote: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September , 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition. When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982 The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week. Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it. By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War. Eli Hobeika, on the other hand, who directly commanded the slaughter of Palestinians was a minister in lebanon until
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Mike Gaskey wrote: A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much I think the attitude isn't quite "ignore it", but more "don't get involved in the first place". All that assumes that the entity you are trying not to get involved with is thinking rationally and isn't interested in you for your own sake (as opposed to being interested in you becuase you spoke out against it). I think the it was a good point that if the US hadn't bought together the coalition it did in order to remove the Taliban then other countries would have been similarly targeted. ...and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I can't believe I was sucked into this one :( cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I'm just curious Chris, if we take away programming posts, sex posts, political posts and religious posts what topics are left for the lounge? Me: Hey David, How's the weather in Britian? Dave: Cloudy, how about Illinois? Me: Hot and humid. Me: Ummmmm.... Hey Chris, how's the weather in Canberra? Me: Chris.... did you get my post? Me: Chris....?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar, what makes you think they can do anything to Saddam Hussein? Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians, but the ringleaders keep slipping away. They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in, and that was to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes.
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Hmm - an article full of mouth-foaming rhetoric for a Sunday evening... The light you shine on a story determines how people will see it. Yes, America defends against tyrants, terrorists and warring nations, but America has also funded and supported tyrants, terrorists and warring nations. It's a delicate balance of using the limited means available to you to produce the desired outcome. A 'means justifies the end'. America must understand that the rest of the World isn't America and that other nations and cultures may approach things differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, or weak, or even anti-Semitic. It just means there are different ways to solve problems. One thing that continues to surprise me is selective memory, where the fact that there were actually other nations involved in most of the wars that were fought is conveniently forgotten. Maybe the torch of America's pride shines so brightly that the efforts of others is hidden in the glare. Maybe other countries simply aren't that proud of the lives they ended in those stupid episodes of human history. I don't know. The thought that America, together with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Europe are working together to share intelligence and help ferret out terrorist activity is a comforting one. That America has the ability and the resources to defend not only itself, but the western world is also something I appreciate. The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me ;) cheers, Chris Maunder
Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
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Mike Gaskey wrote: A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much I think the attitude isn't quite "ignore it", but more "don't get involved in the first place". All that assumes that the entity you are trying not to get involved with is thinking rationally and isn't interested in you for your own sake (as opposed to being interested in you becuase you spoke out against it). I think the it was a good point that if the US hadn't bought together the coalition it did in order to remove the Taliban then other countries would have been similarly targeted. ...and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I can't believe I was sucked into this one :( cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: and here I was just this morning thinking to myself Thanks for not moving. This is one of the few places where intelligent people meet on a regular basis. The blantantly profane should ne moved or deleted but that which engenders healthy debate should stay ( just my US $0.02 ). Mike
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Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar, what makes you think they can do anything to Saddam Hussein? Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians, but the ringleaders keep slipping away. They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in, and that was to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes.
They won't man, cause Iraq has a standing army of 4 million ppl in infantry. They will do one of those game-like air attacks, with significant "collateral damage" (read: kids and women with their hands and legs ripped off after the bombarding), and that will do it...till the next time, next country...oh well, they have a big arsenal of weapons to shoot out, so that they can manufacture more, and the industry works...rich ppl get even more rich...in the meantime, let's lecture Europeans for not joining the party.
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Mike Gaskey wrote: A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much I think the attitude isn't quite "ignore it", but more "don't get involved in the first place". All that assumes that the entity you are trying not to get involved with is thinking rationally and isn't interested in you for your own sake (as opposed to being interested in you becuase you spoke out against it). I think the it was a good point that if the US hadn't bought together the coalition it did in order to remove the Taliban then other countries would have been similarly targeted. ...and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I can't believe I was sucked into this one :( cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. How about a Serious Discussions forum? That would leave the Lounge for silly-discussion stuff, and Soapbox for the sex-related posts ;) --Mike-- Just released - RightClick-Encrypt v1.3 - Adds fast & easy file encryption to Explorer My really out-of-date homepage Sonork-100.19012 Acid_Helm
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Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
damir_tk wrote: Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to A couple of things: I DO NOT repeat DO NOT watch CNN. I watch Fox News and have ever since it became available. CNN is the equivalent of a "liberal rag". I also listen to Rush and Hannity on the radio when I can. I also read Arab News via http://www.arabnews.com/ [^] and try to catch another set of opinions via Pakistan http://www.paknews.com/ [^]on-line and balance that with a view from Israel via http://www.jpost.com/[^] also on-line. So don't make assumptions. Mike
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Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
The UN resolution stated that the land should be divided between ARABS and JEWS,those who didn't accept the compromise were the ARABS! we didn't claimed the entire land,not than not now! damir_tk wrote: At the end, nobody answered to why Americans were always attacking weaker countries? Is is more efficient! if you win against the weak you could attack the stronger too! we are not all the same,a nuke in the hand of a democracy is not the same as the one in the hand of a dictator! there must be "double" standards,how can you judge a democracy and a dictatorship with the same tools? it is not about race,it is about regimes!
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Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
damir_tk wrote: No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. FWIW, I agree with you completely on that point. If the Jews needed a nation we should have bought Baja from Mexico and let them live there. The establishiment of a quasi-European state in Palistine was absolutely the most stupid thing the world could have done. However, to believe that the WTC was attacked over the question of Israel is so monsterously naive as to border on outright stupidity. We could yield to every single Islamic demand concerning Israel and the attacks from the Islamic world would only increase. The U.S. represents a cultural threat to Islam. The success of a political/cultural model diametrically opposed to their very ancient traditions is what this is all about. bin Ladin is not fighting to help the Palistinians, he is fighting to defend a world where he can keep women dressed in sacks and the lower classes under his elitist thumb. damir_tk wrote: So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. So if we disarmed and obeyed International (i.e. "European") Law, Saddam would do likewise. ROFL. Of course I suppose you establish that based on Europe's long history of successfully avoidance of tyrants and dictators. damir_tk wrote: And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not yet mastered the more subtle aspects of the English language, but your comments certainly read like an attempt to establish a set of facts.
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Hmm - an article full of mouth-foaming rhetoric for a Sunday evening... The light you shine on a story determines how people will see it. Yes, America defends against tyrants, terrorists and warring nations, but America has also funded and supported tyrants, terrorists and warring nations. It's a delicate balance of using the limited means available to you to produce the desired outcome. A 'means justifies the end'. America must understand that the rest of the World isn't America and that other nations and cultures may approach things differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, or weak, or even anti-Semitic. It just means there are different ways to solve problems. One thing that continues to surprise me is selective memory, where the fact that there were actually other nations involved in most of the wars that were fought is conveniently forgotten. Maybe the torch of America's pride shines so brightly that the efforts of others is hidden in the glare. Maybe other countries simply aren't that proud of the lives they ended in those stupid episodes of human history. I don't know. The thought that America, together with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Europe are working together to share intelligence and help ferret out terrorist activity is a comforting one. That America has the ability and the resources to defend not only itself, but the western world is also something I appreciate. The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me ;) cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me Though I happen to think highly of George W. (especially in comparison to the losers fielded by the opposition last election), I quite agree. When I was growing up, we never referred to Texas - it was Baja Oklahoma in my family. Even here in the Arizona boondocks it's well known that the main difference between a Texas cowboy and one from Arizona is that in Arizona, the bulls^%$ is on the outside of the boots. The last time I was in Texas it was still legal to drive with the steering wheel in one hand and an open beer in the other... Not the sort of upbringing I'd prefer for a guy with the hotbutton under his thumb! "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."