Article entitled: Memo to Europe
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Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
damir_tk wrote: No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. FWIW, I agree with you completely on that point. If the Jews needed a nation we should have bought Baja from Mexico and let them live there. The establishiment of a quasi-European state in Palistine was absolutely the most stupid thing the world could have done. However, to believe that the WTC was attacked over the question of Israel is so monsterously naive as to border on outright stupidity. We could yield to every single Islamic demand concerning Israel and the attacks from the Islamic world would only increase. The U.S. represents a cultural threat to Islam. The success of a political/cultural model diametrically opposed to their very ancient traditions is what this is all about. bin Ladin is not fighting to help the Palistinians, he is fighting to defend a world where he can keep women dressed in sacks and the lower classes under his elitist thumb. damir_tk wrote: So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. So if we disarmed and obeyed International (i.e. "European") Law, Saddam would do likewise. ROFL. Of course I suppose you establish that based on Europe's long history of successfully avoidance of tyrants and dictators. damir_tk wrote: And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not yet mastered the more subtle aspects of the English language, but your comments certainly read like an attempt to establish a set of facts.
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Hmm - an article full of mouth-foaming rhetoric for a Sunday evening... The light you shine on a story determines how people will see it. Yes, America defends against tyrants, terrorists and warring nations, but America has also funded and supported tyrants, terrorists and warring nations. It's a delicate balance of using the limited means available to you to produce the desired outcome. A 'means justifies the end'. America must understand that the rest of the World isn't America and that other nations and cultures may approach things differently. It doesn't mean they are wrong, or weak, or even anti-Semitic. It just means there are different ways to solve problems. One thing that continues to surprise me is selective memory, where the fact that there were actually other nations involved in most of the wars that were fought is conveniently forgotten. Maybe the torch of America's pride shines so brightly that the efforts of others is hidden in the glare. Maybe other countries simply aren't that proud of the lives they ended in those stupid episodes of human history. I don't know. The thought that America, together with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Europe are working together to share intelligence and help ferret out terrorist activity is a comforting one. That America has the ability and the resources to defend not only itself, but the western world is also something I appreciate. The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me ;) cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me Though I happen to think highly of George W. (especially in comparison to the losers fielded by the opposition last election), I quite agree. When I was growing up, we never referred to Texas - it was Baja Oklahoma in my family. Even here in the Arizona boondocks it's well known that the main difference between a Texas cowboy and one from Arizona is that in Arizona, the bulls^%$ is on the outside of the boots. The last time I was in Texas it was still legal to drive with the steering wheel in one hand and an open beer in the other... Not the sort of upbringing I'd prefer for a guy with the hotbutton under his thumb! "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that it's a Texan who's in charge of the little red button scares the willies out of me Though I happen to think highly of George W. (especially in comparison to the losers fielded by the opposition last election), I quite agree. When I was growing up, we never referred to Texas - it was Baja Oklahoma in my family. Even here in the Arizona boondocks it's well known that the main difference between a Texas cowboy and one from Arizona is that in Arizona, the bulls^%$ is on the outside of the boots. The last time I was in Texas it was still legal to drive with the steering wheel in one hand and an open beer in the other... Not the sort of upbringing I'd prefer for a guy with the hotbutton under his thumb! "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
Yes, but consider that the alternative was a guy from Tennessee and they were fighting to replace a guy from Arkansas. Obviously, the fate of human civilization is destined to be decided by Southern red necks. Ironic, isn't it? I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
I was going to say something about this guy but words fail me X| Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Re: according to your profile, you live in Bosnia / Herzegovina. I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? damir_tk wrote: And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe I didn't. I gave you a reference to an article in a European newspaper written by a European. damir_tk wrote: A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Nope - not angry at all, just bemused. A significant portion of Europe apparently has the same attitude that it has always had: ignore it and it goes away, appease it and it might not hurt you too much. Mike
I have a question - who has been selling the landmines ? The Yugoslavs weren't making them. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Yes, but consider that the alternative was a guy from Tennessee and they were fighting to replace a guy from Arkansas. Obviously, the fate of human civilization is destined to be decided by Southern red necks. Ironic, isn't it? I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Given the choices, I don't think we did half bad! At least he's used to shoes... what a diplomatic problem we'd have without that advantage!:) "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar, what makes you think they can do anything to Saddam Hussein? Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians, but the ringleaders keep slipping away. They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in, and that was to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes.
Ed Gadziemski wrote: Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar That was their goal? But in case you haven't noticed Osama is either a grease spot, a decayed lump of .., or, waiting in a cave for things to get quiet - and they won't. Omar is scooting all over the badlands trying to organize resistance. Meanwhile woman and children are back in school, the heroin trade is greatly diminished and a significant band of terrorists have lost their home. Ed Gadziemski wrote: Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians Get your news from somewhere other than CNN and the New York Times. When this happens it is an accidental by product of war - which, just incidentially, was declared on us. Ed Gadziemski wrote: They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in This is worth mentioning, because? I don't remember that we sent forces in to capture him. Ed Gadziemski wrote: to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes. And you would like to see the US give up it's sovergnity? Has Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. joined? Or are they still debating the Kyoto Treaty? Mike
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They won't man, cause Iraq has a standing army of 4 million ppl in infantry. They will do one of those game-like air attacks, with significant "collateral damage" (read: kids and women with their hands and legs ripped off after the bombarding), and that will do it...till the next time, next country...oh well, they have a big arsenal of weapons to shoot out, so that they can manufacture more, and the industry works...rich ppl get even more rich...in the meantime, let's lecture Europeans for not joining the party.
damir_tk wrote: in the meantime, let's lecture Europeans for not joining the party. I do believe that I asked that you read an article from a European newspaper, written by a European. I am not sure that I can identify where anyone was lecturing Europeans. The author's bio can be found here: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/info.php?artnum=00000bio[^] Unless we don't consider the British to be European. Mike
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damir_tk wrote: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last year, as reported they killed a few hundreds of civilians in the refugees camps...US says it will veto any resolution against Israel in the UN about that incident...some kids survive, with there families getting killed, they are alone now...they will never forget it...and they will grow up...and will come to visit you, make no mistake about it! Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. And this so enraged the children in Saudi Arabia (who through out history have killed other Arabic peoples with utter contempt) that they grew up and flew planes into the WTC. Yeah, that really makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation. I just feel so enlightened. Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. I really feel bad that the U.S. has not attained the same true appreciation for freedom that the people of Bosnia have, given your very successful and lengthy history with the concept. You must be very proud. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Man, you Europeans... If I made a similar comment about Americans I would have a long night on my hands. I guess it is the same game but different rules when played the other way around. And no I don't take offense at anything you have said if you were thinking of using that one. I am just making an observation.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Old Macdonald had a farm and I had it after I had the cows, I had the pigs I'm an animal shafter
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damir_tk wrote: Come live in Europe, land of the free... You forget your own troubles. You also forget that wherever you go, we are all the same. Americans, Europeans, Australians, Asians, Russians, Africans, South Americans, Arabs and Papa New Guinenians. All the same. Break down your issues to the basic level, and you will find them wherever you go. Just as if you break down your joys, you will find them wherever you go. So instead of lashing back across the Atlantic, sort yourselves out first and raise the bar a bit. People will follow, because we are all the same. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "Winning an argument on the internet is like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics -- even though you're the champ, you're still a retard." - Kuro5hin.org Wrong but still funny
Paul Watson wrote: You also forget that wherever you go, we are all the same Rubbish! Papa New Guinenians have a much funnier name... :laugh:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Old Macdonald had a farm and I had it after I had the cows, I had the pigs I'm an animal shafter
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Ed Gadziemski wrote: Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar That was their goal? But in case you haven't noticed Osama is either a grease spot, a decayed lump of .., or, waiting in a cave for things to get quiet - and they won't. Omar is scooting all over the badlands trying to organize resistance. Meanwhile woman and children are back in school, the heroin trade is greatly diminished and a significant band of terrorists have lost their home. Ed Gadziemski wrote: Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians Get your news from somewhere other than CNN and the New York Times. When this happens it is an accidental by product of war - which, just incidentially, was declared on us. Ed Gadziemski wrote: They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in This is worth mentioning, because? I don't remember that we sent forces in to capture him. Ed Gadziemski wrote: to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes. And you would like to see the US give up it's sovergnity? Has Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. joined? Or are they still debating the Kyoto Treaty? Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: Has Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. joined? heh. this is the kind of company the US govt chooses. -c
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
"But added to this is a relatively new and unanswerable factor: why on earth, apart from good manners, should Americans care about what Europe thinks?" If Europe was to send it's military forces to fight on American soil, should Europeans care about what America thinks? I am aware that in the case of Iraq it is not in Europe. In that case use your state of choice. Ignoring the main body of the text which has already been discussed, one comment must be made. "And doesn't the mass grave of 3,000 Americans in the middle of New York City change the equation just a little?" No. Not at all. Why on Earth should it?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Old Macdonald had a farm and I had it after I had the cows, I had the pigs I'm an animal shafter
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"But added to this is a relatively new and unanswerable factor: why on earth, apart from good manners, should Americans care about what Europe thinks?" If Europe was to send it's military forces to fight on American soil, should Europeans care about what America thinks? I am aware that in the case of Iraq it is not in Europe. In that case use your state of choice. Ignoring the main body of the text which has already been discussed, one comment must be made. "And doesn't the mass grave of 3,000 Americans in the middle of New York City change the equation just a little?" No. Not at all. Why on Earth should it?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Old Macdonald had a farm and I had it after I had the cows, I had the pigs I'm an animal shafter
David Wulff wrote: No. Not at all. Why on Earth should it? Because it will not be the last of such mass graves that are purposely filled with civilians. WTC was bombed in '93. We ignored the threat, and treated it like it was a 'crime'. That was the mistake - it will not be made again. -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"
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Reverend Stan wrote: Man, you Europeans... If I made a similar comment about Americans I would have a long night on my hands. I guess it is the same game but different rules when played the other way around. And no I don't take offense at anything you have said if you were thinking of using that one. I am just making an observation.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Old Macdonald had a farm and I had it after I had the cows, I had the pigs I'm an animal shafter
David Wulff wrote: If I made a similar comment about Americans I would have a long night on my hands. I guess it is the same game but different rules when played the other way around. I know. I'm purposefully being an ass about all this. The thing that bugs me are all the people who are using the tragedy of 9/11 to further their own, unrelated, agendas about what the U.S. should be and how it should act. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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The article in last Sunday's London Times: http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20020811[^] is worth a read. Caution though it is more than a snippet. This should elicit an interesting opinion or two. Mike
Nice read thanx; I'd much prefer however to debate the post - invasion problems and scenarios ... because the Mid East looks ready for a big shake up. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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damir_tk wrote: No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. FWIW, I agree with you completely on that point. If the Jews needed a nation we should have bought Baja from Mexico and let them live there. The establishiment of a quasi-European state in Palistine was absolutely the most stupid thing the world could have done. However, to believe that the WTC was attacked over the question of Israel is so monsterously naive as to border on outright stupidity. We could yield to every single Islamic demand concerning Israel and the attacks from the Islamic world would only increase. The U.S. represents a cultural threat to Islam. The success of a political/cultural model diametrically opposed to their very ancient traditions is what this is all about. bin Ladin is not fighting to help the Palistinians, he is fighting to defend a world where he can keep women dressed in sacks and the lower classes under his elitist thumb. damir_tk wrote: So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. So if we disarmed and obeyed International (i.e. "European") Law, Saddam would do likewise. ROFL. Of course I suppose you establish that based on Europe's long history of successfully avoidance of tyrants and dictators. damir_tk wrote: And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not yet mastered the more subtle aspects of the English language, but your comments certainly read like an attempt to establish a set of facts.
Yes, I could give you an example how your country is turning into a dictator-ship. You have arrested towsands of people without even giving their names to the public; your president is asking for the authority that only a dictator can have; the new security organization should have their employees employed without the Law on Work (or however you call it) be applied to them, so they can get hired or fired whenever a Texan wants it; in the next state it should be alowed to arrest ppl and to keep them without charge for as long as there is a state of war, which can take like about next 20 years; some politician even asked for cancellation of citizen rights for all arabs in the States if something like 9/11 happens again; you are forcing countries all over the world to sign the agreement to excuse war criminals of extradiction to the Internation War Crime Court, which is the attempt to be above the law...want some more?
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The UN resolution stated that the land should be divided between ARABS and JEWS,those who didn't accept the compromise were the ARABS! we didn't claimed the entire land,not than not now! damir_tk wrote: At the end, nobody answered to why Americans were always attacking weaker countries? Is is more efficient! if you win against the weak you could attack the stronger too! we are not all the same,a nuke in the hand of a democracy is not the same as the one in the hand of a dictator! there must be "double" standards,how can you judge a democracy and a dictatorship with the same tools? it is not about race,it is about regimes!
The UN resolution was made after a pressure from the US and Jewish lobby, so don't mix up intentionally the order of the happenings. And about the democracy and a dictatorship having a mass destruction weapons, who ever said it will be more safe in the hands of a democratic country? Who ever said that there has to be a democracy or nothing else? There are billions of ppl on this planet that do not want democracy, but you will still try to sell it to them, right. Maybe they should be left to find there own way, and only to give them a friendly guidance, but nothing more...instead, you are constantly pushing them and creating there fate like you are God or somethin, so naturally they get pissed off after a while and do some damage like 9/11...which is something, I repeat, I do not support and think it is totally wrong. However, you are blind, and you do not even want to think at least for a moment about the reasons that led to that. Your hands are not totally clean here either.
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Yes, I could give you an example how your country is turning into a dictator-ship. You have arrested towsands of people without even giving their names to the public; your president is asking for the authority that only a dictator can have; the new security organization should have their employees employed without the Law on Work (or however you call it) be applied to them, so they can get hired or fired whenever a Texan wants it; in the next state it should be alowed to arrest ppl and to keep them without charge for as long as there is a state of war, which can take like about next 20 years; some politician even asked for cancellation of citizen rights for all arabs in the States if something like 9/11 happens again; you are forcing countries all over the world to sign the agreement to excuse war criminals of extradiction to the Internation War Crime Court, which is the attempt to be above the law...want some more?
damir_tk wrote: Yes, I could give you an example how your country is turning into a dictator-ship. You have arrested towsands of people without even giving their names to the public; your president is asking for the authority that only a dictator can have; the new security organization should have their employees employed without the Law on Work (or however you call it) be applied to them, so they can get hired or fired whenever a Texan wants it; in the next state it should be alowed to arrest ppl and to keep them without charge for as long as there is a state of war, which can take like about next 20 years; some politician even asked for cancellation of citizen rights for all arabs in the States if something like 9/11 happens again; you are forcing countries all over the world to sign the agreement to excuse war criminals of extradiction to the Internation War Crime Court, which is the attempt to be above the law...want some more? To the limited extent you are accurate about any of that, I can't say I'm happy about it. However, it hardly constitutes a dictorship. During our Civil War, Abraham Lincoln suspended the right of habeus corpus, the most sacred constitutional right we have, and when the war was over, it was reinstated. We are a nation of laws embodied in a constitution and the constitution gives the executive broad authority to defend the nation as commander and chief. I will admit that I would be more comfortable if Bush would simply eliminate the threat rather than mucking around with things here, but I'm not overly concerned about it. Americans will never tolerate a dictatorship. If you think we would you simply do not understand the character of the American people. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Chris Maunder wrote: and here I was just this morning thinking to myself that from now on all sex, politics and religious based posts will get moved to the soap box. I'm just curious Chris, if we take away programming posts, sex posts, political posts and religious posts what topics are left for the lounge? Me: Hey David, How's the weather in Britian? Dave: Cloudy, how about Illinois? Me: Hot and humid. Me: Ummmmm.... Hey Chris, how's the weather in Canberra? Me: Chris.... did you get my post? Me: Chris....?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm just curious Chris, if we take away programming posts, sex posts, political posts and religious posts what topics are left for the lounge? I was hoping that the lounge would be used for discussions on technology (discussions, not 'how do I do X using MFC' questions) but you may be right. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Ed Gadziemski wrote: Since those clowns in the US military can't even get Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar That was their goal? But in case you haven't noticed Osama is either a grease spot, a decayed lump of .., or, waiting in a cave for things to get quiet - and they won't. Omar is scooting all over the badlands trying to organize resistance. Meanwhile woman and children are back in school, the heroin trade is greatly diminished and a significant band of terrorists have lost their home. Ed Gadziemski wrote: Sure, the US military can and do kill hundreds and thousands of civilians Get your news from somewhere other than CNN and the New York Times. When this happens it is an accidental by product of war - which, just incidentially, was declared on us. Ed Gadziemski wrote: They couldn't even get Milosevic. His own people had to turn him in This is worth mentioning, because? I don't remember that we sent forces in to capture him. Ed Gadziemski wrote: to the kind of world court the US doesn't even want to be held accountable to for its own crimes. And you would like to see the US give up it's sovergnity? Has Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. joined? Or are they still debating the Kyoto Treaty? Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: the heroin trade is greatly diminished From what I hear it's starting up again bigtime. Mike Gaskey wrote: Or are they still debating the Kyoto Treaty? Let's not even get started on that one. <dirty looks at the Australian and US governments> cheers, Chris Maunder