Article entitled: Memo to Europe
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Thanks Chris, I could not agree with you more. This is only a discussion, so I beleive as smart ppl we should be able to discuss these issues with no unnecessary heat. You know guys, there are ppl who think differently than you do, and that is legal in some countries. Now back to the posts, the problem with most of you is that you do not affer any arguments, and that is the basis of any discussion. Reverend Stan: Yeah, sure, that is what started it all. Israel just out of the blue for no reason what so ever just decided to attack Lebanon. No, of course Israel did not started it at all. They just came to the Middle East in 1948. and claimed a territory cause their ancisters lived there 2500 years ago. I don't understand why didn't you give them a State of Oregon to live there, if they had a right to have a country somewhere? Or if they have right to do that, then why don't you return all of the US to the Indians? They lived all over the North America if I remember correctly. If nations start to claim the territories their ancisters lived in, there will never be an end to it. Period. So it is only the strength of armaments that can "claim" a certain territory. Why are you surprised then that a mad Saddam is making a chemical weapons, when he long understood that there is no International Law or such crap, but only if you are strong enough to defend yourself you can do whatever you want to. And besides that, Reverend, you did not really grasp a cinism in the text you are quoting, not to mention you missed the point I tried to establish. Try going through it some more times, like 20-30, I do understand some ppl have a relaxed brain. Reverend Stan: Man, you Europeans really stay well informed don't you? What really intelligent people you are. I guess that is what comes from being so free and all. It was a figure of speech, can't you get it? I do not really think Europe is the land of the free, but since your country is turning into a dictator-ship, we are becoming one in comparinson to you. Did this help? Mike Gaskey: I have a son in the US Army who spent a year in Bosnia. He was specifically tasked with helping Bosinians dig up and disarm landmines. Which side of this were you on. The side that planted the mines or that benefited from his help? I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after w
I am a Bosnian. Unlike CNN has informed you, the only source you really listen to, you did not help as a thing! Nor you are helping. We were bleeding to death for 4 years, lost 200.000 ppl here, and then after we started to liberate our country in the 4th year of war, and to kill the Serbs, you stopped the war and made a Dayton Peace Agreement. We don't need you now, please tell your son to go back home as soon as possible. We only asked for arms embargo (that was only affecting us) to be lifted, cause we had right to defend our country according to the UN Chart. You had no right to impose arms embargo on us, depriving us of the ability to defend. So you want to kill some more people, and at the same time lecture the US about its wars? Exactly, we are all the same. If I have the right to have a nuke, then how can I say Papua New Guinea doesn't? Fight nuks and chemical and biological weapons by not producing them, not by having them and trying to prevent others to have it. And then wait around for another country to produce them and hold everyone hostage? What would've happened if Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan had produced their atomic weapons before everyone else? Hmmmm? (Yes, it is a little known fact that Japan had an atomic weapons program in WWII.) At the end, nobody answered to why Americans were always attacking weaker countries? Because there are no stronger countries. And as for strong countries like China, are you suggesting that the US simply attack them for the sake of attacking a strong country? Has it occured to you that China was NOT behind the 9/11 attacks? And China did NOT invade Kuwait? Fighting terrorism is a long and expensive way, maybe making a world with more tolerance and less injustice would be faster, and there would be no need for terrorism. I'm sure if we throw flowers at Islamic terrorists, they will become nice. BTW, you should know that your understanding of the roots of terrorism and the Al-Queda group in general is severely lacking. Even in a supremely tolerant and just world, there will be terrorists because they want thing their way. In the case of Bin Ladin, he even hates most Muslims and Middle Eastern governments because they aren't Islamic enough. The only way to appease him is to overthrow the world's governments and replace them with hardline Islamic governments (similar to the Taliban). Unless this happens, he is going to continue using terrorism. So, it's not a matter of justice or tolerance, rather, it is a rel
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Well, let's see: Cuba: The US never invaded Cuba because they signed an agreement with Russia -- Russia puts no nukes on Cuba and the US doesn't invade. Pearl Harbor: oh that was a good one for the Japanese, wasn't it? Too bad they lost the war. Vietnam: was severly hampered by a lack of popular support and political will. I'm not sure it was a "win" for the Vietnamese either, though. They lost a LOT of people in that war (something like twenty per US casualty). 9/11: People said a war in Afghanistan would never succeed because no one had ever done it (not the Russians, not the British, ...) Looks like the US did a good job in routing the Taliban though. Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! But only if the stronger guy was the one who starts the fight. What if the weaker guy starts the fight? In my country, we call that guy "stupid". And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? Perhaps you missed Desert Storm when the UN decided that Iraq must be rid of weapons of mass destruction. If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! The treaty was never designed to have any verification. Besides, getting Russia to submit to weapons inspections would've been impossible anyway. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. The attack would've caught you by surprise, too. Don't pretend that you would've been any more capable. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Can you name a single terrorist involved in 9/11 who this happened to? Of course not. Many of them had educations. It is more similar to a
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Yes, I am quite sure that if Arafat told the Palesinians that they should stop the terror, then of course they would comply. Just as sure as if Sharon told the invaders (what do you call those people that steal the land from the palestinians after the Israeli soldiers have moved the original owners?) that they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. And after being bombed and disarmed then Arafats people have a lot of power to enforce this. Do you think it is possible that you could come back to the real world?, I think that would be the first real step towards a solution. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
jan larsen wrote: Just as sure as if Sharon told the invaders (what do you call those people that steal the land from the palestinians after the Israeli soldiers have moved the original owners?) that they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. Too much CNN? who said it is a palestinians land at all? nobody steal land,and nobody killed palestinians as a policy of the government,you are talking nonsense jan larsen wrote: they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. And after being bombed and disarmed then Arafats people have a lot of power to enforce this we don't ask them to enforce it,we just ask arafat to say it in ARABIC,arafat does not want to pay even this political price for the peace,sure he does not need to, he have friends like you in europe... any chance you will start to using you heads instead of relay on ARAB an MUSLIM propaganda?
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As a European I found this article really amusing. Lemme see how many times Americans got there butt kicked: Pig's Bay, Perl Harbour, Vietnam, 9/11...hmmm...they are bragging too much about wars, when they are not very skillful in it. Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Haha...In my country, a guy who constantly beats weaker ones is called a COWARD! And yet another one: Even tho Saddam is definitely a mad man, who ever said they can not have a chemical weapons? I mean, there are so many countries with chemical weapons, why couldn't they? They are a country, arn't they? If I remember correctly, it was the US that strongly denied any attempts back in the 1970-1975 to control the production of the chemical weapons worldwide, now they don't really like it! Your mistake, guys. And yet another one: Don't lecture Europe, cause it only took a few poor cavemen to organize and launch an attack on you, and to practically alter the US as we knew it. You are slowly turning into a dictator-ship, but don't worry, Europe will admit the refugees from the US when they start to come in the following years. And yet another one: Think about your politics, if you constantly make ppl lose their homes, lose their families, lose their lives, lose averything worth living for, then you are actually creating a millions of hopeless ppl who can choose between getting killed somewhere, or striping themselves with a dynamite and blowing themselves off in a moll somewhere in the US. Thats why 9/11 happend, and that is why it will repeat. In my opinion there is nothing that can justify killing civilians as it happend on 9/11, but those ppl didn't come from nowhere, you created them yourselves. US is involved in each and every war or conflict on this planet, either directly or indirectly. A better finish this one...you are probably too angry right now to understand it anyway...so I just waste my time... Come live in Europe, land of the free... P.S. The algorithm of terrorism looks like this: In 1982-1984 Israel invaded Lebanon, killing thowsand of refugees in the camps of Sabra and Shatilla with American tanks, American guns, American hellicopters, American airplaines...children remembered it, be sure about it...They grew up, being about 25 years old on 9/11, and maybe just those kids were flying the airplaines on 9/11...now the circle is closed...here comes the second loop of the same algorithm: Israel invades Gaza Strip last
Another point: why they always attack weaker countries, like Iraq or Libia or somebody else...why they don't attack China for example? Oh, one more note: If I remember correctly, Iraq had the FOURTH largest army in the world when it invaded Kuwait. The only countries in the world which were more powerful were the US, Russia, and China. ------------------------------------------ When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. - Emo Phillips
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jan larsen wrote: Just as sure as if Sharon told the invaders (what do you call those people that steal the land from the palestinians after the Israeli soldiers have moved the original owners?) that they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. Too much CNN? who said it is a palestinians land at all? nobody steal land,and nobody killed palestinians as a policy of the government,you are talking nonsense jan larsen wrote: they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. And after being bombed and disarmed then Arafats people have a lot of power to enforce this we don't ask them to enforce it,we just ask arafat to say it in ARABIC,arafat does not want to pay even this political price for the peace,sure he does not need to, he have friends like you in europe... any chance you will start to using you heads instead of relay on ARAB an MUSLIM propaganda?
who said it is a palestinians land at all? But, equally, who says it is the Israeli's land? Ultimately, an agreement will have to include land for each. I'm not surprised that Palestinians are alarmed by the existence of settlements. (Why is the Israeli government supporting these settlements in the first place? It seems to me to be a provocation to the Palestinians.) ------------------------------------------ When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. - Emo Phillips
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The UN resolution was made after a pressure from the US and Jewish lobby, so don't mix up intentionally the order of the happenings. And about the democracy and a dictatorship having a mass destruction weapons, who ever said it will be more safe in the hands of a democratic country? Who ever said that there has to be a democracy or nothing else? There are billions of ppl on this planet that do not want democracy, but you will still try to sell it to them, right. Maybe they should be left to find there own way, and only to give them a friendly guidance, but nothing more...instead, you are constantly pushing them and creating there fate like you are God or somethin, so naturally they get pissed off after a while and do some damage like 9/11...which is something, I repeat, I do not support and think it is totally wrong. However, you are blind, and you do not even want to think at least for a moment about the reasons that led to that. Your hands are not totally clean here either.
damir_tk wrote: The UN resolution was made after a pressure from the US and Jewish lobby, so don't mix up intentionally the order of the happenings. ha...i knew it should come somewhere...the mighty jewish lobby....yes...but how does it relates to the fact that ARABS didn't accept the compromise...i know it doesn't...! damir_tk wrote: Who ever said that there has to be a democracy or nothing else? There is at least one advantage for a democracy over a dictatorship,democracy can become a dictatorship by the will of the people,in a dictatorship,there is not such things will of the people(i hope in English there is..sorry..for my english),there is only a will of the dictator damir_tk wrote: There are billions of ppl on this planet that do not want democracy ha!? did you use the same methods ASAD of syria use? did you know that he got 99.99% of votes?! damir_tk wrote: and you do not even want to think at least for a moment about the reasons that led to that The reason is simple:people jealous in US,some people get MOTIVATION to be like US,some people get MOTIVATION to destroy the US it is all about education,nothing more if you educate a young boy that he is a bird by the age of 20 he will try to jump from a building.... What make the people of europe so blinds? how come a western democracy like israel (which is not perfect of course) doesnot backed by eurpoe? what is wrong with the education you get there? isn't any more good and bad in europe?
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who said it is a palestinians land at all? But, equally, who says it is the Israeli's land? Ultimately, an agreement will have to include land for each. I'm not surprised that Palestinians are alarmed by the existence of settlements. (Why is the Israeli government supporting these settlements in the first place? It seems to me to be a provocation to the Palestinians.) ------------------------------------------ When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. - Emo Phillips
Brit wrote: But, equally, who says it is the Israeli's land? Ultimately we dont says it is our land we want to share it,they dont.that's what make us in a better moral position,no many countries give back land which was captured in a war which was forced on them,shouldn't be a price to pay if you open a war? Brit wrote: (Why is the Israeli government supporting these settlements in the first place? It seems to me to be a provocation to the Palestinians.) Why not? why palestnians can live in israel and jews cannot build new settlements? live,and build is a provocation? having say that..i myself in general willing to return lands,though i thinks it is belongs to us,the reason that i dont want to give it now,is becuase i can't be sure it will be the end of the palestnians demdnad,surely some europininas will find reason to give more lands to ARAFAT.....
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damir_tk wrote: The UN resolution was made after a pressure from the US and Jewish lobby, so don't mix up intentionally the order of the happenings. ha...i knew it should come somewhere...the mighty jewish lobby....yes...but how does it relates to the fact that ARABS didn't accept the compromise...i know it doesn't...! damir_tk wrote: Who ever said that there has to be a democracy or nothing else? There is at least one advantage for a democracy over a dictatorship,democracy can become a dictatorship by the will of the people,in a dictatorship,there is not such things will of the people(i hope in English there is..sorry..for my english),there is only a will of the dictator damir_tk wrote: There are billions of ppl on this planet that do not want democracy ha!? did you use the same methods ASAD of syria use? did you know that he got 99.99% of votes?! damir_tk wrote: and you do not even want to think at least for a moment about the reasons that led to that The reason is simple:people jealous in US,some people get MOTIVATION to be like US,some people get MOTIVATION to destroy the US it is all about education,nothing more if you educate a young boy that he is a bird by the age of 20 he will try to jump from a building.... What make the people of europe so blinds? how come a western democracy like israel (which is not perfect of course) doesnot backed by eurpoe? what is wrong with the education you get there? isn't any more good and bad in europe?
tomer dror wrote: how come a western democracy like israel (which is not perfect of course) doesnot backed by eurpoe? Could it be because of the Apartheid politics (arabs can be banned from a city if the city council states that the presence of such a person will break the integrity of the current culture). Or that the government openly supports torture (the SOBS even sent Carmi Gillon, a known torturerer, to Denmark as an ambassador). Or that the current leader of the state is responsible for the massacre on hundreds of men, women and children (responsible as in: letting murderers inside a refugee camp, not as in: being unsuccessfull in stopping autonomous suicidal terrorbombers). This is not to say that I find Arafat to be worthy as the leader of a free Palestine, but first of all: That is for the Palestinians to decide and second: As long as Israel is depriving the Palestinians of the tools for building a democratic state they really can't be blamed for not electing someone else, they are stuck with Arafat or some other powerfull dictator for the time being. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
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jan larsen wrote: Just as sure as if Sharon told the invaders (what do you call those people that steal the land from the palestinians after the Israeli soldiers have moved the original owners?) that they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. Too much CNN? who said it is a palestinians land at all? nobody steal land,and nobody killed palestinians as a policy of the government,you are talking nonsense jan larsen wrote: they should stop killing Palestinians, then of course they would comply. And after being bombed and disarmed then Arafats people have a lot of power to enforce this we don't ask them to enforce it,we just ask arafat to say it in ARABIC,arafat does not want to pay even this political price for the peace,sure he does not need to, he have friends like you in europe... any chance you will start to using you heads instead of relay on ARAB an MUSLIM propaganda?
tomer dror wrote: who said it is a palestinians land at all? When you send in soldiers to remove people from their houses which have been the home of generations of people, then sends in bulldozers to trample down those buildings and then permits some desperate people from e.g russia to take over the land, then it pretty much looks like stealing to me. tomer dror wrote: nobody steal land,and nobody killed palestinians as a policy of the government,you are talking nonsense If the government is not in control of the soldiers that removes the original owners and then defends the settlements, then who are?. As far as I know, Sharon have been in charge of the ministry that permitted settlements in the last many years. Pretty smart that is by the way, creating a situation so grave that people find that they have to vote for the same lunatic that brought them into the mess. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
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tomer dror wrote: how come a western democracy like israel (which is not perfect of course) doesnot backed by eurpoe? Could it be because of the Apartheid politics (arabs can be banned from a city if the city council states that the presence of such a person will break the integrity of the current culture). Or that the government openly supports torture (the SOBS even sent Carmi Gillon, a known torturerer, to Denmark as an ambassador). Or that the current leader of the state is responsible for the massacre on hundreds of men, women and children (responsible as in: letting murderers inside a refugee camp, not as in: being unsuccessfull in stopping autonomous suicidal terrorbombers). This is not to say that I find Arafat to be worthy as the leader of a free Palestine, but first of all: That is for the Palestinians to decide and second: As long as Israel is depriving the Palestinians of the tools for building a democratic state they really can't be blamed for not electing someone else, they are stuck with Arafat or some other powerfull dictator for the time being. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
do you enjoy to be so simplistic? or is life on planet Denmark so simple? jan larsen wrote: arabs can be banned from a city if the city council states that the presence of such a person will break the integrity of the current culture First of all arabs cannot be banned,it was a suggestion by some parliament members which didn't become a law second this suggestion is not for arabs only,it says that a community either arabs,jews or druze have the right to preserve their tradition inside a small community we are not talking about cities! only SMALL communities Why is the right of a person to live where ever he want,is important than the right of a community to preserve it's tradition? farther more,why is the right of a person more important than the right of a community? jan larsen wrote: Or that the government openly supports torture What should we or other western democracy do when we have a ticking bomb in our hands should we ask him nicely:"please tell us all you know" there is the rights of a man not to be torture,and there is the right of a civilian to stay in life what happen when those right are collides? should we need to be simplistic as you?. i do not know how life on planet Denmark is,but here in our planet sometimes, you need to choose between two alternatives which both aren't perfect,wish you could suggest other solution to this moral issue...i guess you can't that is what Europe does...you can allways call the USA. Any way the fact that our law approve use of a limited force in special cases in order to save life does not mean that we are the only country that uses force,we just dont speak with two voices,do you realy think that no other country use force against terrorist??!?! jan larsen wrote: As long as Israel is depriving the Palestinians of the tools for building a democratic state come on! there is no other arab state which is democratic,is israel to blame for that too? jan larsen wrote: Or that the current leader of the state is responsible for the massacre on hundreds of men, women and children Yes,Sharon is responsible,and he paid the price,he was banned from being minister of defense,ELI HUBEIKA on the other hand who command the massacre was until recently a minister in the government of Lebanon no criticize what so ever had been made by you and your fellow eurponians The Lebanese Christian Phalangis
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do you enjoy to be so simplistic? or is life on planet Denmark so simple? jan larsen wrote: arabs can be banned from a city if the city council states that the presence of such a person will break the integrity of the current culture First of all arabs cannot be banned,it was a suggestion by some parliament members which didn't become a law second this suggestion is not for arabs only,it says that a community either arabs,jews or druze have the right to preserve their tradition inside a small community we are not talking about cities! only SMALL communities Why is the right of a person to live where ever he want,is important than the right of a community to preserve it's tradition? farther more,why is the right of a person more important than the right of a community? jan larsen wrote: Or that the government openly supports torture What should we or other western democracy do when we have a ticking bomb in our hands should we ask him nicely:"please tell us all you know" there is the rights of a man not to be torture,and there is the right of a civilian to stay in life what happen when those right are collides? should we need to be simplistic as you?. i do not know how life on planet Denmark is,but here in our planet sometimes, you need to choose between two alternatives which both aren't perfect,wish you could suggest other solution to this moral issue...i guess you can't that is what Europe does...you can allways call the USA. Any way the fact that our law approve use of a limited force in special cases in order to save life does not mean that we are the only country that uses force,we just dont speak with two voices,do you realy think that no other country use force against terrorist??!?! jan larsen wrote: As long as Israel is depriving the Palestinians of the tools for building a democratic state come on! there is no other arab state which is democratic,is israel to blame for that too? jan larsen wrote: Or that the current leader of the state is responsible for the massacre on hundreds of men, women and children Yes,Sharon is responsible,and he paid the price,he was banned from being minister of defense,ELI HUBEIKA on the other hand who command the massacre was until recently a minister in the government of Lebanon no criticize what so ever had been made by you and your fellow eurponians The Lebanese Christian Phalangis
tomer dror wrote: First of all arabs cannot be banned,it was a suggestion by some parliament members which didn't become a law Recently there was an article in one of the most respected Danish newspapers that told about a Palestinian MD that wanted to move to a community where his children could have better opportunities for education and safety, according to this article he was denied on the grounds of this suggestion so it seems that it is implemented regardless of the actual law. tomer dror wrote: Why is the right of a person to live where ever he want,is important than the right of a community to preserve it's tradition? farther more,why is the right of a person more important than the right of a community? What do you think would happen if a German community proposed that it should be legal to disallow Jews in certain districts to preserve the tradition?. tomer dror wrote: do you enjoy to be so simplistic? or is life on planet Denmark so simple? You know, sometimes things are actually quite simple. tomer dror wrote: come on! there is no other arab state which is democratic,is israel to blame for that too? Whether Palestine is democratic or not was obviously not my point, but Israel keeps demanding actions from the Palestinians that requires an actual state, while on the other hand they destroy every state building structure that would deliver the means to comply. This looks an awfull lot like a tactical move comparable to the ever expanding limits required by the increasing number of settlements. tomer dror wrote: What should we or other western democracy do when we have a ticking bomb in our hands should we ask him nicely:"please tell us all you know" there is the rights of a man not to be torture,and there is the right of a civilian to stay in life what happen when those right are collides? should we need to be simplistic as you?. If you use torture you are a lowlife criminal, case closed, there is NO excuse for this barbaric crime. I think it is very uncomfortable that the western societies wants to mingle with a state that hires people for causing pain and suffering on human beings. Maybe some of the victims, even a majority, somehow deserved a vile punishment, but what kind of person do you think would make a torturer?. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
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tomer dror wrote: First of all arabs cannot be banned,it was a suggestion by some parliament members which didn't become a law Recently there was an article in one of the most respected Danish newspapers that told about a Palestinian MD that wanted to move to a community where his children could have better opportunities for education and safety, according to this article he was denied on the grounds of this suggestion so it seems that it is implemented regardless of the actual law. tomer dror wrote: Why is the right of a person to live where ever he want,is important than the right of a community to preserve it's tradition? farther more,why is the right of a person more important than the right of a community? What do you think would happen if a German community proposed that it should be legal to disallow Jews in certain districts to preserve the tradition?. tomer dror wrote: do you enjoy to be so simplistic? or is life on planet Denmark so simple? You know, sometimes things are actually quite simple. tomer dror wrote: come on! there is no other arab state which is democratic,is israel to blame for that too? Whether Palestine is democratic or not was obviously not my point, but Israel keeps demanding actions from the Palestinians that requires an actual state, while on the other hand they destroy every state building structure that would deliver the means to comply. This looks an awfull lot like a tactical move comparable to the ever expanding limits required by the increasing number of settlements. tomer dror wrote: What should we or other western democracy do when we have a ticking bomb in our hands should we ask him nicely:"please tell us all you know" there is the rights of a man not to be torture,and there is the right of a civilian to stay in life what happen when those right are collides? should we need to be simplistic as you?. If you use torture you are a lowlife criminal, case closed, there is NO excuse for this barbaric crime. I think it is very uncomfortable that the western societies wants to mingle with a state that hires people for causing pain and suffering on human beings. Maybe some of the victims, even a majority, somehow deserved a vile punishment, but what kind of person do you think would make a torturer?. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
jan larsen wrote: Recently there was an article in one of the most respected Danish newspapers that told about a Palestinian MD that wanted to move to a community I guess that this respected Danish newspapers didn't mention that there are already arabs who lives inside this community? jan larsen wrote: What do you think would happen if a German community proposed that it should be legal to disallow Jews in certain districts to preserve the tradition?. It is not the same,the suggestion was not to disallow arab,rather to allow a community to reject any kind of people,there are arab community which don't accept jews for example,why own community don't accept all jews again,try not to be simplistic,you have two rights which collide,the right of a person and the right of a community,it is not an easy question. jan larsen wrote: while on the other hand they destroy every state building structure that would deliver the means to comply. should a state building used by terrorists? they didn't comply even when they have 30,000 "policemens", no other country have this amount(ratio) of policemens!!!! one can think that one day we decided to destroy the PLA,you forgot all the bombs in our cities? we have no other option! jan larsen wrote: This looks an awfull lot like a tactical move comparable to the ever expanding limits required by the increasing number of settlements. It is tactical the same way expending arab settlements is,this is a disputed land if they can build we can too. jan larsen wrote: but what kind of person do you think would make a torturer?. maybe the kind who want to save life? what kind of person do you think would not use any means to save life? once again,two rights collide "not be tortured",and "stay in life",if those the only options i would choose to tortured,you would do the same if you could save the life of one of your family members,so please dont pretend to be a "TZADIK" i still waiting for your suggestion,what should we do when we have ticking bomb in our hand should we let it kill children? or should we use alimited force in order to make him tell what he know?
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jan larsen wrote: Recently there was an article in one of the most respected Danish newspapers that told about a Palestinian MD that wanted to move to a community I guess that this respected Danish newspapers didn't mention that there are already arabs who lives inside this community? jan larsen wrote: What do you think would happen if a German community proposed that it should be legal to disallow Jews in certain districts to preserve the tradition?. It is not the same,the suggestion was not to disallow arab,rather to allow a community to reject any kind of people,there are arab community which don't accept jews for example,why own community don't accept all jews again,try not to be simplistic,you have two rights which collide,the right of a person and the right of a community,it is not an easy question. jan larsen wrote: while on the other hand they destroy every state building structure that would deliver the means to comply. should a state building used by terrorists? they didn't comply even when they have 30,000 "policemens", no other country have this amount(ratio) of policemens!!!! one can think that one day we decided to destroy the PLA,you forgot all the bombs in our cities? we have no other option! jan larsen wrote: This looks an awfull lot like a tactical move comparable to the ever expanding limits required by the increasing number of settlements. It is tactical the same way expending arab settlements is,this is a disputed land if they can build we can too. jan larsen wrote: but what kind of person do you think would make a torturer?. maybe the kind who want to save life? what kind of person do you think would not use any means to save life? once again,two rights collide "not be tortured",and "stay in life",if those the only options i would choose to tortured,you would do the same if you could save the life of one of your family members,so please dont pretend to be a "TZADIK" i still waiting for your suggestion,what should we do when we have ticking bomb in our hand should we let it kill children? or should we use alimited force in order to make him tell what he know?
tomer dror wrote: I guess that this respected Danish newspapers didn't mention that there are already arabs who lives inside this community? It stated very clearly that this was not the case. tomer dror wrote: It is not the same,the suggestion was not to disallow arab,rather to allow a community to reject any kind of people,there are arab community which don't accept jews for example,why own community don't accept all jews again,try not to be simplistic,you have two rights which collide,the right of a person and the right of a community,it is not an easy question. It is a very simple question, if you put limits to the rights of people based on their culture, color of skin or religion you are on the road to fascism. tomer dror wrote: It is tactical the same way expending arab settlements is,this is a disputed land if they can build we can too. Can you point me to where these arabian settlements inside the original borders are?, and I don't mean those villages that existed before Israel. And no, I don't believe that you have the right to permit people from all over the world that happens to claim they are part of some obscure religion to build settlements in occupied areas. tomer dror wrote: once again,two rights collide "not be tortured",and "stay in life",if those the only options i would choose to tortured,you would do the same if you could save the life of one of your family members. Yes I would, but that is clearly not the situation, the person that attaches electric devices to someones testicles are obviously not doing this for saving his actual relatives, the goal is rather abstracted from this and to be able to perform those deeds without any direct threat takes a psycopath. Furthermore, what I would do as an act of revenge is not the politics of our government, what is the most horrible part of this business is that the psycopath is PAID to commit his crime by the state. tomer dror wrote: i still waiting for your suggestion,what should we do when we have ticking bomb in our hand should we let it kill children? or should we use alimited force in order to make him tell what he know? You have never been in that situation, the suicide bombers are mostly people that faced with no future seeks revenge for their murdered relatives, they never give ultimatums. Take a good look at what Sharons tactics have brought you. The road ahea
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tomer dror wrote: I guess that this respected Danish newspapers didn't mention that there are already arabs who lives inside this community? It stated very clearly that this was not the case. tomer dror wrote: It is not the same,the suggestion was not to disallow arab,rather to allow a community to reject any kind of people,there are arab community which don't accept jews for example,why own community don't accept all jews again,try not to be simplistic,you have two rights which collide,the right of a person and the right of a community,it is not an easy question. It is a very simple question, if you put limits to the rights of people based on their culture, color of skin or religion you are on the road to fascism. tomer dror wrote: It is tactical the same way expending arab settlements is,this is a disputed land if they can build we can too. Can you point me to where these arabian settlements inside the original borders are?, and I don't mean those villages that existed before Israel. And no, I don't believe that you have the right to permit people from all over the world that happens to claim they are part of some obscure religion to build settlements in occupied areas. tomer dror wrote: once again,two rights collide "not be tortured",and "stay in life",if those the only options i would choose to tortured,you would do the same if you could save the life of one of your family members. Yes I would, but that is clearly not the situation, the person that attaches electric devices to someones testicles are obviously not doing this for saving his actual relatives, the goal is rather abstracted from this and to be able to perform those deeds without any direct threat takes a psycopath. Furthermore, what I would do as an act of revenge is not the politics of our government, what is the most horrible part of this business is that the psycopath is PAID to commit his crime by the state. tomer dror wrote: i still waiting for your suggestion,what should we do when we have ticking bomb in our hand should we let it kill children? or should we use alimited force in order to make him tell what he know? You have never been in that situation, the suicide bombers are mostly people that faced with no future seeks revenge for their murdered relatives, they never give ultimatums. Take a good look at what Sharons tactics have brought you. The road ahea
jan larsen wrote: It stated very clearly that this was not the case. I don't understand what you mean to,any way it is the case,arabs do live there. jan larsen wrote: Yes I would, but that is clearly not the situation, the person that attaches electric devices to someones testicles are obviously not doing this for saving his actual relatives, the goal is rather abstracted from this and to be able to perform those deeds without any direct threat takes a psycopath whooo!!!! but we don't do such things!!,what the court permit to do is the following: 1.prevent him from sleep 2.shake him those tools only used on a "ticking bombs" and only by court permission. jan larsen wrote: You have never been in that situation, the suicide bombers are mostly people that faced with no future seeks revenge for their murdered relatives, they never give ultimatums. ground control to major jan (on planet denmark),can you hear me? it is a joke right? maybe you don't understand what we talked about,many times we have people who knows that a suicide bomber is on his way to kill childrens and mothers,we call the situation a "ticking bomb" 'now you face with 2 options,shake the men,or wait to the news.....and here the news is not relate to MTV award..... did you know that israel prevent more than 80% of the terror attacks?!? jan larsen wrote: Take a good look at what Sharons tactics have brought you it start long before sharon become to be prime minister,demonize sharon is an ARAB tactic ,obviously they succeeded..at least in your planet.... jan larsen wrote: Retreat to the original limits of Israel How can we retreat if we don't agree on the borders? this should be discussed between israel and the Palestinians,do you really think that a state,can retreat because of terror threats? can't you understand that if the terror beat israel he will beat the west?! any way we did it in Lebanon,and they coming from Lebanon,and killed our people,and kidnapped 3 solider and one civilian...did the Denish newspaper wrote about it too...let me guess......NO! Jan,you have the right to criticize israel of course,i don't seek balance,i really don't,what's bother me with your(EUROPE) criticize is that it is only goes towards israel,ARAB nations commit terrible crimes against humanity,and i didn't see any single demonstration in Denmark against them! at lea
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jan larsen wrote: It stated very clearly that this was not the case. I don't understand what you mean to,any way it is the case,arabs do live there. jan larsen wrote: Yes I would, but that is clearly not the situation, the person that attaches electric devices to someones testicles are obviously not doing this for saving his actual relatives, the goal is rather abstracted from this and to be able to perform those deeds without any direct threat takes a psycopath whooo!!!! but we don't do such things!!,what the court permit to do is the following: 1.prevent him from sleep 2.shake him those tools only used on a "ticking bombs" and only by court permission. jan larsen wrote: You have never been in that situation, the suicide bombers are mostly people that faced with no future seeks revenge for their murdered relatives, they never give ultimatums. ground control to major jan (on planet denmark),can you hear me? it is a joke right? maybe you don't understand what we talked about,many times we have people who knows that a suicide bomber is on his way to kill childrens and mothers,we call the situation a "ticking bomb" 'now you face with 2 options,shake the men,or wait to the news.....and here the news is not relate to MTV award..... did you know that israel prevent more than 80% of the terror attacks?!? jan larsen wrote: Take a good look at what Sharons tactics have brought you it start long before sharon become to be prime minister,demonize sharon is an ARAB tactic ,obviously they succeeded..at least in your planet.... jan larsen wrote: Retreat to the original limits of Israel How can we retreat if we don't agree on the borders? this should be discussed between israel and the Palestinians,do you really think that a state,can retreat because of terror threats? can't you understand that if the terror beat israel he will beat the west?! any way we did it in Lebanon,and they coming from Lebanon,and killed our people,and kidnapped 3 solider and one civilian...did the Denish newspaper wrote about it too...let me guess......NO! Jan,you have the right to criticize israel of course,i don't seek balance,i really don't,what's bother me with your(EUROPE) criticize is that it is only goes towards israel,ARAB nations commit terrible crimes against humanity,and i didn't see any single demonstration in Denmark against them! at lea
tomer dror wrote: How can we retreat if we don't agree on the borders? this should be discussed between israel and the Palestinians,do you really think that a state,can retreat because of terror threats? can't you understand that if the terror beat israel he will beat the west?! Yes, the problem is exactly that you don't agree on the borders, but that doesn't mean that they weren't there. And no, I do not believe that the Palestinian suicide bombers are coming to any western civilizations in the near future, you see: their problem is Israel. tomer dror wrote: ground control to major jan (on planet denmark),can you hear me? it is a joke right? maybe you don't understand what we talked about,many times we have people who knows that a suicide bomber is on his way to kill childrens and mothers,we call the situation a "ticking bomb" 'now you face with 2 options,shake the men,or wait to the news.....and here the news is not relate to MTV award..... Let me get this straight: You have informants telling that there are suicide bombers on their way to Israel, but these informants do not know who, where and why?. Well let me tell you a secret: THERE ARE SUICIDE BOMBERS ON THEIR WAY TO ISRAEL!!!.... tomer dror wrote: any way we did it in Lebanon,and they coming from Lebanon,and killed our people,and kidnapped 3 solider and one civilian...did the Denish newspaper wrote about it too...let me guess......NO! tomer dror wrote: Jan,you have the right to criticize israel of course,i don't seek balance,i really don't,what's bother me with your(EUROPE) criticize is that it is only goes towards israel,ARAB nations commit terrible crimes against humanity,and i didn't see any single demonstration in Denmark against them! at least be consistent with you criticize. Actually that incident was referred in the news, I am not saying that Palestine is the good guy and Israel is the bad guy and neither does the Danish news. But the various Palestinian resistance movements and terror organizations are not a coherent group that you can reason with. Israel on the other hand is acting as a STATE and that is a very important difference. How can Israel blame a coming Palestinian state for the terror acts of e.g Hamas?, if that is the rules of the game then it is also legal to blame Israel for any crime an Israelian have done. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
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tomer dror wrote: How can we retreat if we don't agree on the borders? this should be discussed between israel and the Palestinians,do you really think that a state,can retreat because of terror threats? can't you understand that if the terror beat israel he will beat the west?! Yes, the problem is exactly that you don't agree on the borders, but that doesn't mean that they weren't there. And no, I do not believe that the Palestinian suicide bombers are coming to any western civilizations in the near future, you see: their problem is Israel. tomer dror wrote: ground control to major jan (on planet denmark),can you hear me? it is a joke right? maybe you don't understand what we talked about,many times we have people who knows that a suicide bomber is on his way to kill childrens and mothers,we call the situation a "ticking bomb" 'now you face with 2 options,shake the men,or wait to the news.....and here the news is not relate to MTV award..... Let me get this straight: You have informants telling that there are suicide bombers on their way to Israel, but these informants do not know who, where and why?. Well let me tell you a secret: THERE ARE SUICIDE BOMBERS ON THEIR WAY TO ISRAEL!!!.... tomer dror wrote: any way we did it in Lebanon,and they coming from Lebanon,and killed our people,and kidnapped 3 solider and one civilian...did the Denish newspaper wrote about it too...let me guess......NO! tomer dror wrote: Jan,you have the right to criticize israel of course,i don't seek balance,i really don't,what's bother me with your(EUROPE) criticize is that it is only goes towards israel,ARAB nations commit terrible crimes against humanity,and i didn't see any single demonstration in Denmark against them! at least be consistent with you criticize. Actually that incident was referred in the news, I am not saying that Palestine is the good guy and Israel is the bad guy and neither does the Danish news. But the various Palestinian resistance movements and terror organizations are not a coherent group that you can reason with. Israel on the other hand is acting as a STATE and that is a very important difference. How can Israel blame a coming Palestinian state for the terror acts of e.g Hamas?, if that is the rules of the game then it is also legal to blame Israel for any crime an Israelian have done. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies
jan larsen wrote: And no, I do not believe that the Palestinian suicide bombers are coming to any western civilizations in the near future, you see: their problem is Israel. You are totally wrong! a while ago there was a"minor" terror attack in the USA,remember?,as far as i remember those terrorist committed SUICIDE, also if i am not mistaken i just read about an islamic group who want to create an islamic nation on you planet Denmark!!! it will take time,but at the end you will feel it too! jan larsen wrote: Let me get this straight: You have informants telling that there are suicide bombers on their way to Israel, but these informants do not know who, where and why?. Well let me tell you a secret: THERE ARE SUICIDE BOMBERS ON THEIR WAY TO ISRAEL!!!.... no,jan i think you didn't get it,terror organization built from small cells,sometimes we have one man from this cell,who we believe that knows that someone else from this cell going to kill mothers and childrens,we use limited force in order to get the information out of it, of course me make mistakes,but we are talking about general issue,any way you already agree that in some cases you would use the same methods!!! jan larsen wrote: How can Israel blame a coming Palestinian state for the terror acts of e.g Hamas? maybe because they(PLA) don't try to stop them? pay them money? dont arrest them? remember the one which we killed in GAZA,and as a mistake we also killed 17 others? we ask PLA to arrest him a year ago!!! where was EUROPE than? this tragedy could have been prevented! did you know that more than 60% of the last terror attacks was made by the FATAH which is the political wing of ARAFAT? jan you don't understand that SUICIDE BOMBER is made out of hope!,yes!!! he thinks that by doing this he will achieve political goals. you must understand that terror gains legitimacy in some societies in order to achieve political goals,ever thought why there are so many group in the PLA,why so many security forces? jan larsen wrote: if that is the rules of the game then it is also legal to blame Israel for any crime an Israelian have done But you do it all the time,more than that,when arabs kills arabs (in sabrah and shatilla) you blame a jew......
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jan larsen wrote: And no, I do not believe that the Palestinian suicide bombers are coming to any western civilizations in the near future, you see: their problem is Israel. You are totally wrong! a while ago there was a"minor" terror attack in the USA,remember?,as far as i remember those terrorist committed SUICIDE, also if i am not mistaken i just read about an islamic group who want to create an islamic nation on you planet Denmark!!! it will take time,but at the end you will feel it too! jan larsen wrote: Let me get this straight: You have informants telling that there are suicide bombers on their way to Israel, but these informants do not know who, where and why?. Well let me tell you a secret: THERE ARE SUICIDE BOMBERS ON THEIR WAY TO ISRAEL!!!.... no,jan i think you didn't get it,terror organization built from small cells,sometimes we have one man from this cell,who we believe that knows that someone else from this cell going to kill mothers and childrens,we use limited force in order to get the information out of it, of course me make mistakes,but we are talking about general issue,any way you already agree that in some cases you would use the same methods!!! jan larsen wrote: How can Israel blame a coming Palestinian state for the terror acts of e.g Hamas? maybe because they(PLA) don't try to stop them? pay them money? dont arrest them? remember the one which we killed in GAZA,and as a mistake we also killed 17 others? we ask PLA to arrest him a year ago!!! where was EUROPE than? this tragedy could have been prevented! did you know that more than 60% of the last terror attacks was made by the FATAH which is the political wing of ARAFAT? jan you don't understand that SUICIDE BOMBER is made out of hope!,yes!!! he thinks that by doing this he will achieve political goals. you must understand that terror gains legitimacy in some societies in order to achieve political goals,ever thought why there are so many group in the PLA,why so many security forces? jan larsen wrote: if that is the rules of the game then it is also legal to blame Israel for any crime an Israelian have done But you do it all the time,more than that,when arabs kills arabs (in sabrah and shatilla) you blame a jew......
tomer dror wrote: You are totally wrong! a while ago there was a"minor" terror attack in the USA,remember? Those guys were not Palestinian suiciders, they were Islamic fundamentalists and that is a whole other issue. tomer dror wrote: also if i am not mistaken i just read about an islamic group who want to create an islamic nation on you planet Denmark!!! Yes we have those problems allready, but the Israel/Palestine problem shouldn't be about religion, if that was the case I could only say: Use the nukes and while your'e at it could you please take some of our lunatics with you?. tomer dror wrote: maybe because they(PLA) don't try to stop them? pay them money? dont arrest them? remember the one which we killed in GAZA,and as a mistake we also killed 17 others? we ask PLA to arrest him a year ago!!! where was EUROPE than? this tragedy could have been prevented! You are wrong, Europe tries to stop you all the time to end the tragedies..., oh that was not what you meant?. When you throw weapons around among civilians away from a declared battlefield, then it is cold blooded murder along the lines of a suicide terror bomber. tomer dror wrote: did you know that more than 60% of the last terror attacks was made by the FATAH which is the political wing of ARAFAT? jan you don't understand that SUICIDE BOMBER is made out of hope!,yes!!! he thinks that by doing this he will achieve political goals. I am NOT trying to support Arafat, Fatah or legitimate terror, but you yourselves have given them no other opportunities, they stand with their backs against the wall and are using the only possible weapons they have. To decrease the number of terror actions you must provide another way for them to achieve the goal of getting their own state including the occupied land. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies