to christian graus
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indians have just launched a chandrayaan, mission to moon. please dont underestimate indians. they are hardworking people. they are doing all by their own. it's just they have just started waking up. i think after 30 years they will be on par with all of you in communication etc.
meenakumar wrote:
i think after 30 years they will be on par with all of you in communication etc
Not when they can't even start sentences with a capital letter. :)
I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
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Our problems aren't with Indians or Indian companies. There are several fantastic Indian developers who regularly contribute to this site who are the equal of anybody. Our problems are with incompetent and lazy programmers. Unfortunately, if you take a look at the ASP.NET forum, there are so many basic questions from Indian programmers who ask for solutions to very simple problems. They don't look things up on Google. They demand instant answers by telling us it's urgent - well whoop-de-frickin'-do for you chummy, who cares? They downvote you if you don't provide fully working solutions for them? They lack basic knowledge, and they will insist on using text speak which takes ages to translate. Again, this can be applied to many people, but unfortunately we see a predominance of Indian's who are like this. Also, as stated before, this doesn't apply to all Indian's. There are several here who I'd be proud to hire.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Don't sit on the fence, Pete, you can come out and tell it as it is! :-D
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
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you a...hole, you are indian but laughing at them, you have sold youself. because of people like you why british ruled us for so many years. you southie.
No, The British Ruled you for so many years because of all your in-fighting and internecine politics. Once you actually combined and started making it work , we left. ALthough we left a lot behind. Language, Government, Civil Service, Transport, You can walk the streets at night, Education, The Wine, don't forget the wine, and apart from that , What did the Romans British ever do for you!
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
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biggest joke.. we are capable of building our own infrastructure.
Then why do you insist on £50 mill a year? Perhaps we should stop it and keep it here in Britain.
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
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Our problems aren't with Indians or Indian companies. There are several fantastic Indian developers who regularly contribute to this site who are the equal of anybody. Our problems are with incompetent and lazy programmers. Unfortunately, if you take a look at the ASP.NET forum, there are so many basic questions from Indian programmers who ask for solutions to very simple problems. They don't look things up on Google. They demand instant answers by telling us it's urgent - well whoop-de-frickin'-do for you chummy, who cares? They downvote you if you don't provide fully working solutions for them? They lack basic knowledge, and they will insist on using text speak which takes ages to translate. Again, this can be applied to many people, but unfortunately we see a predominance of Indian's who are like this. Also, as stated before, this doesn't apply to all Indian's. There are several here who I'd be proud to hire.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
well these frsher indian programmers,, (including myself) look at you guys real professionals and look up to you , we probably do not know ho to go all about in forums etc.. but you guys just go on insulting us, why? you are in your shells,, that's why all the conflicts in the world are happening. you are not aware of third world counties, their sentiments.
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hi christian some posts by you suggests you dont like indian companies. may be indian programmers. can you give more feedback . is it is, why is that so? is it the hidden dislike for indians altogether.. or just indian companies. or are there more things you hate i felt hurt so i am writing you. regards kmeena
Hey kmeena. Let me be clear. I make no distinction about any person that is based purely on race. I don't think all Indians are good or bad, or that all Australians are smart or stupid. That is racism. I certainly have known and worked with a number of excellent indian developers, most notably Nish ( we both worked for code project at the same time some years ago ). There are many other CPians who are Indian, and whom I respect greatly. Their race doesn't even enter into my thinking. On the other hand, I have worked with a number of indian outsourcing firms, something that I did because I was placed in a position where it was part of my job. We outsourced, I liased with Indian teams, and I supervised their work. Without fail, every single time, the work was not done, it was badly done, it was not done in accordance with my instructions, I lost weekend trying to meet deadlines based on shoddy or non existant work, etc. My comments are entirely based on my belief that the west has been blindly throwing money at India, expecting to magically get back great code for next to nothing. I don't blame the indians for taking the opportunity, but it does appear to me that unless you have the ability to interview people in india, and have a physical presence there, anyone who, for example, advertised on rentacoder and expects a system written for them, is going to be very disappointed. I am a programmer and I was managing the situation, that's why our projects got done. I invariably did them. I can't imagine what a disaster it would be for a non programmer to try to get work out of an indian company. If you're a programmer in India ( and I assume you are ) I would not assume to judge your abilities on that basis, I don't know you. I would assume based on my experience that if you asked me to pass you some outsourced work, that it would not be worth the risk for me to do that, entirely based on 100% negative experiences in the past. Those are two different things. I am not trying to say all indian programmers suck, I certainly have friends I would be insulting if I said that. I am merely stating that in my experience, outsourcing does not work.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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Then why do you insist on £50 mill a year? Perhaps we should stop it and keep it here in Britain.
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
what proof you have that you aid to us 50£ mill pounds.
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what proof you have that you aid to us 50£ mill pounds.
Public Accounts Commitee of The Houses of Parliament publish figures each year. Go look it up, it is a matter of public record.
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
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well these frsher indian programmers,, (including myself) look at you guys real professionals and look up to you , we probably do not know ho to go all about in forums etc.. but you guys just go on insulting us, why? you are in your shells,, that's why all the conflicts in the world are happening. you are not aware of third world counties, their sentiments.
The answer to this is simple. My answer below was based on some comments I've made about outsourcing. As far as these forums are concerned, they are flooded with people who are asking the most basic questions, and expecting their work done for them. I'd help anyone who is willing to learn, willing to work, willing to try. When people post 'I don't know how to send an email in C#', that is someone who I would never, ever help, employ, or regard as a programmer. You type that question in to google and you get the answer. Anyone who can't work that out, does not deserve to be paid for touching a PC in any way. On the other hand, it's my opinion that the west has created this problem - stupid people throw money at anyone in india who claims they can code, and is it any wonder that people jump at the chance and then try to figure it out, despite being in way over their depth ? No. I don't blame the individuals, and I don't hate them. I just don't like the idea that I can go into a forum and teach someone who is in the process of devaluing what I do, despite being clueless. If I wanted to do that, I'd rather give free lessons at a local community college or something.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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Wow. I never thought I'd see a question like this posted to anyone but myself.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I made a comment about outsourcing earlier in the day, in the thread where the Filipino wanted help with their American accent for a call centre job.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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indians have just launched a chandrayaan, mission to moon. please dont underestimate indians. they are hardworking people. they are doing all by their own. it's just they have just started waking up. i think after 30 years they will be on par with all of you in communication etc.
Perhaps. Will they know how to use google in that time ? Seriously, I am sure there are competent indians. I know plenty. And I'm sure they can get to the moon. That's because they won't do it by advertising the work on rentacoder, and their programmers won't be on CP asking how to send email, and how to convert a string into a number.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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well these frsher indian programmers,, (including myself) look at you guys real professionals and look up to you , we probably do not know ho to go all about in forums etc.. but you guys just go on insulting us, why? you are in your shells,, that's why all the conflicts in the world are happening. you are not aware of third world counties, their sentiments.
Too Soapy. But to blame Programmers for all the World's conflicts is a bit much. Personally I blame it on Religion and Stupidity. Those too stupid to get on in the real world and understand how things work turn to religion. Religion highlights differences and breeds intolerance, THAT is why there is conflict. Programmers generally don't start wars. Also, You really could do with learning to start sentences with a majuscule.
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
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meenakumar wrote:
why is that so?
Why is he required to give an explanation? :)
meenakumar wrote:
are there more things you hate
Vista, iPhone, IE, VS 2008, Telestra, Notepad, C#, VB, VB.NET and list goes on. Question is what does he actually love? Metal and Guitar may be.
meenakumar wrote:
i felt hurt
If you are hurt just think how hurt the Vista team might be.
Proud to be a CPHog user
ROTFL - I wish I had not replied now, your responses sum me up far more accurately....
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
If you are hurt just think how hurt the Vista team might be.
Enough to boot me from the MVP program, apparently.....
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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you a...hole, you are indian but laughing at them, you have sold youself. because of people like you why british ruled us for so many years. you southie.
And you are racist, for making remarks like that.
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Part of the problem is that postings such as this contain so many grammatical errors and this puts doubt into the reader's mind. Foolish questions being asked by people purporting to be professional programmers have a very detrimental effect on the perception of Indian programmers. To get a different explanation maybe you could ask John Simmons / Outlaw Programmer the same question.
I still remember having to write your own code in FORTRAN rather than be a cut and paste merchant being pampered by colour coded Intellisense - ahh proper programming - those were the days :)
I don't know about CG, but my list follows: 0) Generally speaking, the Indians "programmers" that post here are lazy. When they post a question in the programming forum, more often than not, they haven't tried writing the code, and would prefer that someone else just provide it for them. 1) Generally speaking, their questions are posted in the form of a demand for code, rather than a request for help. 2) Generally speaking, articles posted by Indian "programmers" simply suck. The formatting is poor (or non-existent), the content is sparse (or non-existent), and their command of the English language is laughable. 3) Generally speaking, they think everyone here is their friend by default. How wrong they are, and this is mostly due to those that came before them. 4) Generally speaking, the new Indian "programmers" here assume there is hate involved in responses to their requests demands for help. That's not the case. It's merely a high level of frustration with having to hear from yet another clueless retard. 5) Outsourcing has really soured a lot of European and American programmers toward their Indian counterparts. I fail to see why Indian "programmers" don't recognize this and feel compelled to call it hate or racism. 6) Indians work for considerably less money because they can, and this dilutes the profession's generally high level of pay that we've worked so hard to develop (and enhances the outsourcing problem).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Hey kmeena. Let me be clear. I make no distinction about any person that is based purely on race. I don't think all Indians are good or bad, or that all Australians are smart or stupid. That is racism. I certainly have known and worked with a number of excellent indian developers, most notably Nish ( we both worked for code project at the same time some years ago ). There are many other CPians who are Indian, and whom I respect greatly. Their race doesn't even enter into my thinking. On the other hand, I have worked with a number of indian outsourcing firms, something that I did because I was placed in a position where it was part of my job. We outsourced, I liased with Indian teams, and I supervised their work. Without fail, every single time, the work was not done, it was badly done, it was not done in accordance with my instructions, I lost weekend trying to meet deadlines based on shoddy or non existant work, etc. My comments are entirely based on my belief that the west has been blindly throwing money at India, expecting to magically get back great code for next to nothing. I don't blame the indians for taking the opportunity, but it does appear to me that unless you have the ability to interview people in india, and have a physical presence there, anyone who, for example, advertised on rentacoder and expects a system written for them, is going to be very disappointed. I am a programmer and I was managing the situation, that's why our projects got done. I invariably did them. I can't imagine what a disaster it would be for a non programmer to try to get work out of an indian company. If you're a programmer in India ( and I assume you are ) I would not assume to judge your abilities on that basis, I don't know you. I would assume based on my experience that if you asked me to pass you some outsourced work, that it would not be worth the risk for me to do that, entirely based on 100% negative experiences in the past. Those are two different things. I am not trying to say all indian programmers suck, I certainly have friends I would be insulting if I said that. I am merely stating that in my experience, outsourcing does not work.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Thanks Christian, I just wanted to know your view point. I respect it. Just getting to know the sincere feedback will allow us to think for ourselves , how we should improve. Just getting insults hurled at us will confuse us. I know , we need improvements in many areas. Most of the the families are just coming us and entering into corporate world. They have less idea of the the corporate ethics, communcation, business practices. but we are tryting to learn . We can not alienate ourselves and want to deal with the world. But some posts in the lounge just made me think very inferior, so put this post here. Here lot of people have insulted me without knowing my genuine feeling and what I felt. anyway Thanks. I can start myown on my english, also in someways i can put forward these ideas to my friends, some of them just in colleges.. regards, kMeena.
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you a...hole, you are indian but laughing at them, you have sold youself. because of people like you why british ruled us for so many years. you southie.
Rama is one of the people I think of when I say that I certainly know good Indian programmers, and proudly count them amongst my friends.
meenakumar wrote:
because of people like you why british ruled us for so many years.
ROTFL !!! Are you guys still upset about that ? Like someone else said, I'm sure you didn't ditch all their infrastructure as soon as they left.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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Thanks Christian, I just wanted to know your view point. I respect it. Just getting to know the sincere feedback will allow us to think for ourselves , how we should improve. Just getting insults hurled at us will confuse us. I know , we need improvements in many areas. Most of the the families are just coming us and entering into corporate world. They have less idea of the the corporate ethics, communcation, business practices. but we are tryting to learn . We can not alienate ourselves and want to deal with the world. But some posts in the lounge just made me think very inferior, so put this post here. Here lot of people have insulted me without knowing my genuine feeling and what I felt. anyway Thanks. I can start myown on my english, also in someways i can put forward these ideas to my friends, some of them just in colleges.. regards, kMeena.
Well, you have to remember that a lot of people have lost jobs to outsourcing, which makes them feel more personally about it. I wasn't trying to take a shot at any specific person, just comment on my own experiences. And I feel honoured to once again have a thread named after me :-)
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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No, The British Ruled you for so many years because of all your in-fighting and internecine politics. Once you actually combined and started making it work , we left. ALthough we left a lot behind. Language, Government, Civil Service, Transport, You can walk the streets at night, Education, The Wine, don't forget the wine, and apart from that , What did the Romans British ever do for you!
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
we were lot richer without you, you just stripped us. you were thiefs, stole our Kohinoor diamond also. now dont want to return also.
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Public Accounts Commitee of The Houses of Parliament publish figures each year. Go look it up, it is a matter of public record.
------------------------------------ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
you go and look it up again.