Whatever happened to Rapid Application Development?
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And it is the cause of a lot of problems. With people confusing concepts of Agile and RAD and thinking one is the other. I would love to see a shop actually take a non-RAD approach with .NET, the results would be better.
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Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.I was talking to an architect at a client the other week, and he stated that they were following Agile. I asked him which one and his reply was, "Errm. Just Agile."
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sneaky - I like it !!!
I prefer to think of it as good customer management - oh okay, sneaky. I'll accept that.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
*grin* they are often one and the same.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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I was talking to an architect at a client the other week, and he stated that they were following Agile. I asked him which one and his reply was, "Errm. Just Agile."
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
That's what's called a toilet expert. He read about it on the toilet.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
Oh, definitely. There are three key steps to developing an application rapidly:
- Know what needs to be done. This should be obvious, and i almost just left it out... but, yeah, if you don't know what you'll need to end up with before you begin, then you can't expect to finish quickly. Iterative development isn't a bad thing, and RAD may form the first, prototyping stage of it... but if you just need a tool cobbled together by this evening, waiting on other people to test and evaluate ain't gonna cut it.
- Know how to write software. The first key to RAD is knowing that you can re-invent the wheel if pre-packaged wheels will take too much time for delivery. It gives you leverage, especially combined with
- Don't chase every ball MS throws. You're a developer, not a dog - if you can get the job done faster using ASMX, or ASHX, or a custom HTTP server, or carrier pigeons... then do it. I have it on a reliable source that WCF rocks... but until you have had the time to learn it well enough to be fast using it (i haven't) then write what you need using what you already know.
That's it. Know what you need, know how to get it, don't get distracted.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
Don't chase every ball MS throws.
That statement is worth a king's ransom.
Shog9 wrote:
You're a developer, not a dog
I know some of my ex-bosses that would definitely pay good money to keep you quiet Shog so that your words won't somehow find its way to their bitc, uh, developers' ears. :)
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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I'm a developer for a company with a single location, a small transaction volume (30/day), a few vendor and in house apps (.Net/Oracle mostly), and an unlimited IT budget. Our business users are unhappy at how long it takes us to deliver apps, and how often our projects "fail". The reasons seem to be that: a) Our architect won't allow us to develop single layer apps ("what are you, pro-silo?"), instead each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers. b) MS is making it harder and harder to code out these layers, by for example replacing .asmx web services with WCF technologies. The problem could also be c) Incompetent developers, but it sure seems like MS' former focus on high level simplicty and business productivity has evaporated. Is RAD even possible anymore? Thanks.
gulchgoersf wrote:
each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers.
Reusability is the third biggest lie. It is up there with: 1. I love you 2. I ... err, maybe we should skip number two. 3. If we increase the complexibility we will be able to reuse it in all future projects. I am all for reusability and code class libraries for things that will actually be useful in future projects, but to add multiple tiers spread out over a server farm just to produce a report is like putting air conditioning on a bicycle. It is added engineering that will not be useful.
gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
C# makes development pretty simple. Now if you can convince the Architect that you need a simple span over the brook and not a suspension bridge you can get some pretty rapid results. I always ask the question when people start to over engineer "is this a six month project or a six year project?". That sometimes helps to get them to think within the allocated bugdet, but not always.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
gulchgoersf wrote:
each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers.
Reusability is the third biggest lie. It is up there with: 1. I love you 2. I ... err, maybe we should skip number two. 3. If we increase the complexibility we will be able to reuse it in all future projects. I am all for reusability and code class libraries for things that will actually be useful in future projects, but to add multiple tiers spread out over a server farm just to produce a report is like putting air conditioning on a bicycle. It is added engineering that will not be useful.
gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
C# makes development pretty simple. Now if you can convince the Architect that you need a simple span over the brook and not a suspension bridge you can get some pretty rapid results. I always ask the question when people start to over engineer "is this a six month project or a six year project?". That sometimes helps to get them to think within the allocated bugdet, but not always.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesEvery interview I did when I used to do interviews ( that is, as a person being interviewed ) I would say in response to 'what is OO for', 'well, in theory you can reuse the code, but no-one ever does, and over-engineering to build reusable code every time is kind of stupid'. I've been offered a job by everyone who has ever interviewed me, I believe. I can say for sure that every time I've said that, it got a good laugh.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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gulchgoersf wrote:
each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers.
Reusability is the third biggest lie. It is up there with: 1. I love you 2. I ... err, maybe we should skip number two. 3. If we increase the complexibility we will be able to reuse it in all future projects. I am all for reusability and code class libraries for things that will actually be useful in future projects, but to add multiple tiers spread out over a server farm just to produce a report is like putting air conditioning on a bicycle. It is added engineering that will not be useful.
gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
C# makes development pretty simple. Now if you can convince the Architect that you need a simple span over the brook and not a suspension bridge you can get some pretty rapid results. I always ask the question when people start to over engineer "is this a six month project or a six year project?". That sometimes helps to get them to think within the allocated bugdet, but not always.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesI have seen so many projects fail because of insistance on reusing old code that plain doesn't fit the requirements. We have some code that we reuse, but the vast majority is written afresh for each client. There's a widespread belief that IT projects should be run like engineering with a one size nut fits all approach, but the reality is that frequently there's a one nut fits all projects mentality, and normally he has too much power.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I'm a developer for a company with a single location, a small transaction volume (30/day), a few vendor and in house apps (.Net/Oracle mostly), and an unlimited IT budget. Our business users are unhappy at how long it takes us to deliver apps, and how often our projects "fail". The reasons seem to be that: a) Our architect won't allow us to develop single layer apps ("what are you, pro-silo?"), instead each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers. b) MS is making it harder and harder to code out these layers, by for example replacing .asmx web services with WCF technologies. The problem could also be c) Incompetent developers, but it sure seems like MS' former focus on high level simplicty and business productivity has evaporated. Is RAD even possible anymore? Thanks.
Is what you are building more like a treehouse or more like a nuclear power plant? If you are building a tree house go agile/RAD If you are building a nuclear power station go with up front design and proven engineering If it lies somwhere in between so should your solution
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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Every interview I did when I used to do interviews ( that is, as a person being interviewed ) I would say in response to 'what is OO for', 'well, in theory you can reuse the code, but no-one ever does, and over-engineering to build reusable code every time is kind of stupid'. I've been offered a job by everyone who has ever interviewed me, I believe. I can say for sure that every time I've said that, it got a good laugh.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
OO (specifically the reused portion) works well when you're writing frameworks. With normal day to day application development - it works less well.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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gulchgoersf wrote:
a) Our architect won't allow us to develop single layer apps ("what are you, pro-silo?"), instead each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers.
Hmmm. Sounds like your architect doesn't understand why you'd want to layer software - I'm guessing that he has been overpromoted and is well out of his depth. RAD isn't a magic bullet - it doesn't replace solid locked down requirements, and a clear understanding of what the system will do on BOTH sides. RAD only works when you have a partnership between the users and the development team. If you can get the users to actually help in a development, then they have much more of an incentive to help you get it right. Now for the most powerful RAD secret: When your users are with you to see the screens, have something that is obviously and glaringly wrong. When they point it out, and you guide them to the thing you want, they feel that they have contributed. Next time, show them the interface with "their" suggestion incorporated. You can't buy the good will this generates from your users.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
When your users are with you to see the screens, have something that is obviously and glaringly wrong. When they point it out, and you guide them to the thing you want, they feel that they have contributed. Next time, show them the interface with "their" suggestion incorporated. You can't buy the good will this generates from your users.
That is devious. I like it! :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
OO (specifically the reused portion) works well when you're writing frameworks. With normal day to day application development - it works less well.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Sure - it's a tool you need to understand and use to the degree that it fits.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
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That's what's called a toilet expert. He read about it on the toilet.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's what's called a toilet expert. He read about it on the toilet.
I hope you don't mind if I use that one. I can think of a few folks that pertains to. :rolleyes:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I'm a developer for a company with a single location, a small transaction volume (30/day), a few vendor and in house apps (.Net/Oracle mostly), and an unlimited IT budget. Our business users are unhappy at how long it takes us to deliver apps, and how often our projects "fail". The reasons seem to be that: a) Our architect won't allow us to develop single layer apps ("what are you, pro-silo?"), instead each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers. b) MS is making it harder and harder to code out these layers, by for example replacing .asmx web services with WCF technologies. The problem could also be c) Incompetent developers, but it sure seems like MS' former focus on high level simplicty and business productivity has evaporated. Is RAD even possible anymore? Thanks.
Urgh! A non-software company with an IT department developing internal "enterprise" software, and an "architect". I hope I'll never have to work in such environment.
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Sure - it's a tool you need to understand and use to the degree that it fits.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - it's a tool you need to understand and use to the degree that it fits.
Unfortunately, there are too many tools in the industry who don't understand this.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
When your users are with you to see the screens, have something that is obviously and glaringly wrong. When they point it out, and you guide them to the thing you want, they feel that they have contributed. Next time, show them the interface with "their" suggestion incorporated. You can't buy the good will this generates from your users.
That is devious. I like it! :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
devious
The folks on here who know me well will tell you that this is a perfect summary of me. ;) A basic level of devious is required whenever dealing with clients. Of course, certain other industries require a certain level of deviance.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
devious
The folks on here who know me well will tell you that this is a perfect summary of me. ;) A basic level of devious is required whenever dealing with clients. Of course, certain other industries require a certain level of deviance.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I'm a developer for a company with a single location, a small transaction volume (30/day), a few vendor and in house apps (.Net/Oracle mostly), and an unlimited IT budget. Our business users are unhappy at how long it takes us to deliver apps, and how often our projects "fail". The reasons seem to be that: a) Our architect won't allow us to develop single layer apps ("what are you, pro-silo?"), instead each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers. b) MS is making it harder and harder to code out these layers, by for example replacing .asmx web services with WCF technologies. The problem could also be c) Incompetent developers, but it sure seems like MS' former focus on high level simplicty and business productivity has evaporated. Is RAD even possible anymore? Thanks.
"Architects" X| Web services is a great way of loosely linking systems with minimal dependencies between those systems (and developers). RAD lives and dies by the demo. I like demoing every 2 to 3 weeks, get customers input and make changes to application. I rely a great deal on unit testing to expose breaks in application as application is changed. RAD shows the customer you are making progress. Waterfall puts you in jeopardy because it's more difficult to show progress (requirments matrix, don't even compare to a functional demo).
MrPlankton
(bad guy)"Fear is a hammer, and when the people are beaten finally to the conviction that their existence hangs by a frayed thread, they will be led where they need to go."
(good guy)"Which is where?"
(bad guy)"To a responsible future in a properly managed world."
Dean Koontz, The Good Guy -
gulchgoersf wrote:
each must be broken down into a variety of service layers for some future "reusability" that must be distributed across various servers.
Reusability is the third biggest lie. It is up there with: 1. I love you 2. I ... err, maybe we should skip number two. 3. If we increase the complexibility we will be able to reuse it in all future projects. I am all for reusability and code class libraries for things that will actually be useful in future projects, but to add multiple tiers spread out over a server farm just to produce a report is like putting air conditioning on a bicycle. It is added engineering that will not be useful.
gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
C# makes development pretty simple. Now if you can convince the Architect that you need a simple span over the brook and not a suspension bridge you can get some pretty rapid results. I always ask the question when people start to over engineer "is this a six month project or a six year project?". That sometimes helps to get them to think within the allocated bugdet, but not always.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
putting air conditioning on a bicycle
I'd love to see that and if the price is right... :)
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I was talking to an architect at a client the other week, and he stated that they were following Agile. I asked him which one and his reply was, "Errm. Just Agile."
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I was talking to an architect at a client the other week, and he stated that they were following Agile. I asked him which one and his reply was, "Errm. Just Agile."
we claim to be agile, I actually had someone tell me there is only one Agile. I said, no, we are a cross of several. I listed the overlap points, he said he never heard of the others. There was one and only one Agile methodology. I gave up. He's the one who probably wrote it on the toilet that yours read. :)
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gulchgoersf wrote:
Is RAD even possible anymore?
Oh, definitely. There are three key steps to developing an application rapidly:
- Know what needs to be done. This should be obvious, and i almost just left it out... but, yeah, if you don't know what you'll need to end up with before you begin, then you can't expect to finish quickly. Iterative development isn't a bad thing, and RAD may form the first, prototyping stage of it... but if you just need a tool cobbled together by this evening, waiting on other people to test and evaluate ain't gonna cut it.
- Know how to write software. The first key to RAD is knowing that you can re-invent the wheel if pre-packaged wheels will take too much time for delivery. It gives you leverage, especially combined with
- Don't chase every ball MS throws. You're a developer, not a dog - if you can get the job done faster using ASMX, or ASHX, or a custom HTTP server, or carrier pigeons... then do it. I have it on a reliable source that WCF rocks... but until you have had the time to learn it well enough to be fast using it (i haven't) then write what you need using what you already know.
That's it. Know what you need, know how to get it, don't get distracted.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
I have it on a reliable source that WCF rocks
I just got back from a class at DevelopMentor a month ago. We spent a day on WCF. Our current application uses a home-grown TCP/IP sockets-based messaging protocol. While it is robust, there's a lot of "copy/paste" coding that goes on when you add a new message or event. My boss about blew a gasket when I told him we ought to chuck the whole thing in place of WCF, because WCF is freakin' cool. It's what DCOM should have been and was too gut-wrenchingly difficult to learn to get working. DCOM also had severe defects in that you couldn't control error handling and link timeouts.
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