Tips for Code Reviewing Juniors in a Far-East Asian work culture?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I would think the best thing to do is not to point out problems but ask leading questions that will allow them to find the problems in their own code. That way its not personal and they dont loose face. Obviously if you have a tight deadline you might just need to wave a big stick.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
Philip Laureano wrote:
I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony.
obviously a different place than I. :) This has nothing to do with US vs. Asia or anywhere else. Eventually you will always find a company who attempts to "please everyone all of the time" such attempts look good on paper as do many things on paper, that have no practical application. There is no one way to deal with it either. I don't tell folks at work their code sucks, though I might come here and blow off some steam. We did put in place some rules for code, format, documentation, etc. Those can be pointed at directly. This is our policy, follow it, if you don't like it, you can attempt to change policy... but until then, follow it. I generally try to be hands-off except for performance, bugs, and documentation. Performance is how we make our name, and I got management backing on it because it makes us unique. Without performance we are no one, we have no product. There are a few who grumble quite loudly at that, but management so far backs me. In design, management backs no one, and style drifts. I have been told that my code is "ancient" and I scoff at some of the younger developers concepts where performance is irrelevant. So I have no answer there. but if you can get something into policy, something in writing, it is no longer your interpretation. This is policy, this is how you do it.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
1. if you have on going relationship with them, that will help. 2. you are not here to micro manage. let people do their work. it might not be exactly the way you like, but hey if it works, doesn't crash, is maintainable, etc... you got to give in! 3. if the code has blatant mistake or is hard to maitain, or is convoluted, etc... tell them: "I look at your code and there are better way of doing that, let me show you", hopefully they will learn.
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
This is not confined to any regional area, if you tell a junior his code sucks then that junior is going to feel lousy. I would consider a lead that a liability to the team. You need to point out their mistakes and explain the correct way to do it and why. Then get them to agree that they understand why the changes were required, this is important as, in some cultures, a junior will blindly accept a leads edict without pushing back to get any more information. And yes it can severely impact lead time, you need to make your management aware of that impact. If you do not do this you are not building a team.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
Philip Laureano wrote:
What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks?
"Your code is great! The best i've ever seen! Unfortunately, we have a strict all-code-must-suck policy here, so let me show you how to do it wrong..." (won't work if sarcasm translates - let us know...)
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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Philip Laureano wrote:
What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks?
"Your code is great! The best i've ever seen! Unfortunately, we have a strict all-code-must-suck policy here, so let me show you how to do it wrong..." (won't work if sarcasm translates - let us know...)
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
"Your code is great! The best i've ever seen! Unfortunately, we have a strict all-code-must-suck policy here, so let me show you how to do it wrong..." (won't work if sarcasm translates - let us know...)
Actually, I think I'll try that. :laugh: Maybe I can blunt their sensitivities with positive comments, and then just show them how to fix it without going negative.
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I've run into that "culture" before and contrary to what others say, it really is a cultural difference. In my case, the people were so kindhearted that they just didn't want to hurt my feelings by giving bad news, so they wouldn't tell me that things were going bad. Of course ultimately the inevitable happened and I was left holding the bag. It's frustrating, but I never found a good way to get them to let me know the bad news ASAP. I ended up trying to understand what they really meant by reading between the lines. In other words, if they didn't come right out and tell me that things were fantastic, I assumed they weren't and started investigating. I think you are in a slightly different position than I was, so I think you have a real challenge on your hands. You'll need to really understand their culture and mindset and also find out how they deal with such things. Any direct advice we give you on CP without actually knowing the situation would probably just get you into more problems. That said, I'd probably try to find a local who somewhat understands western thinking and ask them what to do. Surely they have ways of handling such situations that are probably more subtle, but probably as effective. And unless you are fluent in the local language and customs, it may indeed be tough to dish out their subtleties. Good luck!
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I've run into that "culture" before and contrary to what others say, it really is a cultural difference. In my case, the people were so kindhearted that they just didn't want to hurt my feelings by giving bad news, so they wouldn't tell me that things were going bad. Of course ultimately the inevitable happened and I was left holding the bag. It's frustrating, but I never found a good way to get them to let me know the bad news ASAP. I ended up trying to understand what they really meant by reading between the lines. In other words, if they didn't come right out and tell me that things were fantastic, I assumed they weren't and started investigating. I think you are in a slightly different position than I was, so I think you have a real challenge on your hands. You'll need to really understand their culture and mindset and also find out how they deal with such things. Any direct advice we give you on CP without actually knowing the situation would probably just get you into more problems. That said, I'd probably try to find a local who somewhat understands western thinking and ask them what to do. Surely they have ways of handling such situations that are probably more subtle, but probably as effective. And unless you are fluent in the local language and customs, it may indeed be tough to dish out their subtleties. Good luck!
The PetroNerd
Walt Fair, Jr. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I think you are in a slightly different position than I was, so I think you have a real challenge on your hands. You'll need to really understand their culture and mindset and also find out how they deal with such things. Any direct advice we give you on CP without actually knowing the situation would probably just get you into more problems. That said, I'd probably try to find a local who somewhat understands western thinking and ask them what to do. Surely they have ways of handling such situations that are probably more subtle, but probably as effective. And unless you are fluent in the local language and customs, it may indeed be tough to dish out their subtleties. Good luck!
In this case, my only advantage here is that I speak the language and I'm familiar with many of the customs; ethnically, I'm about as Filipino as everyone else back here--but when I start speaking English, it's pretty obvious that I'm a red-blooded American by culture. :laugh:
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
Like Bassam said, talk it over with your boss before talking with the junior programmers. Not sure exactly what you can say to them, but go into the code review with the initiative of helping them improve their code. Try to make it a positive learning environment.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I'd say: 1. Make sure that it really sucks - it's not just that you prefer doing it one way and they prefer another. 2. Make sure everyone is aware up front that code will be reviewed - no surprises in store. 3. Always start off positive: "This code here is clever - I like the way you've ." Then tell them why what they have done is not best practice. "The problem is that that " Then guide them toward better way "The way round this would be to ". Good - But - Better 4. DON'T rewrite their code (that gets peoples backs up, I've found) point them in the right direction, if you can. If it is critical that that code get done, then rewrite it with them - explain what you are doing. 5. Listen to their arguments. If they think their code is good despite your criticism, hear them out - maybe there's something you missed, or some misunderstanding they have, which can be dealt with by listening to their input. 6. DO overlook minor points where there are bigger fish to fry. My philosophy is always that you are all part of a team - so you all need to work together to produce results. The fact that you are a senior developer means that you should have expertise to share - share it willingly, without seeming arrogant.
Life is like a pubic hair on the toilet seat... ...sometimes, you just get pissed off. .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I can assure you that it is different and it can be a pain to deal with. One thing that may work is a bug tracking system with anonymous logins. Then you can report bugs, code deficiencies, enhancement etc. And if you want to get really hokey you try to get people to step up and claim ownership of issues and then reward them usually with a simple acknowledgement. It's a bit different form Western style management where you might claim your grandmother could code it better. Damn that's slow!
Todd Smith
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
True. I worked in Nepal all my life starting from a software developer since 9 years back. ppl do not like codes reviewed. I could not say them why this loop here when for is better. In JSF they did not like me poiting to complex object annotations and implementations instead of simple JSF component usage. Code Review is starting. they even do not like when QA personnel point defects and bugs in their programs. they would say, client would not look at codes.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
Philip Laureano wrote:
What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks?
Let them see your work, they will learn from it. The first company I joined here in Japan, when I asked for a design diagram of their current product, I was given an A4 print-out with about 10 C++ classes, most of which were not found in the codes. Before, MS started integrating Visio into the VS, I bought my own visio and used it for the UML diagrams. It became the standard practice. When starting a major new project (last before leaving), I wrote the rules, and not long after that one of them wrote a tool to check the rules. It is simple, they are not after super-worker but super-team. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I'm technical manager in a company developing our own inhouse software. After 23 years in Asia & 5 years of management, I still have no answer! It REALLY is a culture thing - I have the same problems as one other poster - staff would rather not say anything than give you bad news, despite the fact that they know from past experience that I am going to be MORE annoyed when I find out the bad news - 5 minutes before the deadline. Sensitivity is over-rated as far as I am concerned, when you are trying to compete globally. I'm too old to change so the junior staff will have to change or get fired if they cannot. I fired someone 2 days ago for going on sick leave & then being caught out running personal errands all day. Even today one of my shift staff didn't want to come in because they had a migraine - I told them I had a bottle of Panadol in my office drawer for my frequent migraines & they eventually came in. My solution is to resign as Technical Director & start my new job on 1st January with the same company as R&D Director, working from home & doing only the projects I want to do. They can have a local Operations Manager to try to get these young people to understand what holding down a job entails - i.e. not downloading GB of porn or Twittering all day.
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Now that I've managed to land a fairly-comfortable job as a Senior Developer in a SouthEast Asian company, I find myself at odds with the culture here in the company and their attitude towards work and code. Apparently, my immediate supervisor wants me to be more "sensitive" to the people under me because they might get offended if I pointed out the flaws in their code. The culture in Asia seems to be more "people" centered, and the reason why I'm at odds is because I grew up in the U.S. where the goal is efficiency rather than social harmony. So anyway, here's my question: What's the most diplomatic way to tell them that their code well...sucks? If I have a deadline to meet and I've got people under me who I have to tiptoe around, it's going to hamper my efficiency, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to correct them for the mistakes that they make without offending their sensitivities. Has anyone else been in this situation before? And how did you resolve it?
Do you know...LinFu?
I have worked for a number of years with people from South East Asia and what I think you are noticing is the phenomena in the West called 'Losing face'. What you need to be able to do is find a way to resolve the issue without them feeling that they have 'lost face'. Personally I would never work in the culture you talk about as it is so at odds with my own work ethic where owning up to ones mistakes is more acceptable. All I can say is good luck and try to notice how the people in this culture deal with each other, then follow suit - when in Rome... Also I think telling anyone their code sucks, whatever culture you are in, is poor management. What I suggest is setting up code review meetings. Get them used to it, and make sure everyone participates and contributes. What I think you need to build is connections. Good luck.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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or maybe you just think too highly of yourself? does this offend you? think about it
---------------------------------------------------------- "unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep" - my daily unix command list
swjam wrote:
or maybe you just think too highly of yourself? does this offend you? think about it
It would be easier if it was just a problem that was all in my head--a splitting migraine is relatively mild compared to having someone else writing try-catch blocks six levels deep and long and heavily if-else-else-if chains to no avail. Believe me, there's a huge cultural gap, and it has nothing to do with my skills or whatever perception I might have of myself.
Do you know...LinFu?