getting started with ASP.NET development
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I am confused by your and Mycroft's reply. Is ASP.NET so bad? (compared to what?) Did I miss some newer technology? (is it called connect:ASP.live?) :confused: The application would access and modify the same data from multiple clients in a LAN.
peterchen wrote:
Is ASP.NET so bad?
No. It's not bad at all. WebForms, OTOH, sucks. Leaky abstraction and all that - if you go in with the idea that you'll be able to do up web apps the same way you'd write a desktop app (which seems to be how MS is selling it), then you'll be in a world of pain and quickly find Mycroft's description apt. But if you know your way around HTML, then you can use ASP.NET pretty much like ASP (but with better languages for the code... and better code-markup separation). Just stay far away from anything considered a "Control".
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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You can have a look at the ASP.Net MVC stuff http://www.asp.net/learn/mvc[^]
ColinM123 wrote:
You can have a look at the ASP.Net MVC stuff http://www.asp.net/learn/mvc\[^\]
These are all really well done tutorials esp. the MVC Storefront application. I'm loving ASP.NET MVC so far.
Todd Smith
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Can you recommend ressources for someone who is well-versed in C#, has used classic ASP in some projects that are still up and running, can make Frontpage spit out some CSS, doesn't bother with W3C as long as his HTML looks ok, and thinks XML sucks? (a.k.a. me) I have an idea for a project that looks more and more like a browser app.
No specific resources, but I would recommend: Learn and understand just what ASP.NET is doing. Often I find that, behind the scenes, it's doing a whole lot of stuff that, frankly, is wasting bandwidth and resources for the sake of 'instant gratification'. Go back to basics where you can. Learn Javascript. If you are doing a weborms application, I find that javascript is the hard bit. Understand how to access local objects in javascript (because .Net renames everything, it's not as simple as you might think sometimes) Learn Javascript. Yeah - I said it once and I said it again. Inject your javascript from your code behind if you want, which can be useful, but remember it has to be injected every time - so if it is 'static code', keep it separate if you can. Develop lots of test projects before you go all in. If you're not used to the differences, even simple things can stuff you up! Separate your design and your code. CSS everything (so you can change the design more easily) and use plenty of <div> and not too many tables. Test the form at every stage with at least IE and FF Make sure you know how to debug javascript! Search CP and other places for resources showing you how to do exactly what you ant, rather than re-inventing the wheel. good example - I needed 'cascading' (aka drilldown) combos on a page. There's lots of ways to do it, but I discovered a few examples, and learned more about what they were doing than I would have writing it myself. Don't make the mistake of thinking AJAX will help you. It's great when appropriate, but many many times it is just too slow for use in a 'real' app. Great on a web site (in some cases) but I replaced a lot of my AJAX with javascript using arrays - slightly longer to load the page, but instant on the client rather than waiting for a callback. Just my 2c ramble!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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peterchen wrote:
Is ASP.NET so bad?
No. It's not bad at all. WebForms, OTOH, sucks. Leaky abstraction and all that - if you go in with the idea that you'll be able to do up web apps the same way you'd write a desktop app (which seems to be how MS is selling it), then you'll be in a world of pain and quickly find Mycroft's description apt. But if you know your way around HTML, then you can use ASP.NET pretty much like ASP (but with better languages for the code... and better code-markup separation). Just stay far away from anything considered a "Control".
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
I disagree a bit - I think make sure you fully understand what you are doing before delving into using anything considered a 'Control'. Controls have their uses - but overuse can make your eyes bleed!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Can you recommend ressources for someone who is well-versed in C#, has used classic ASP in some projects that are still up and running, can make Frontpage spit out some CSS, doesn't bother with W3C as long as his HTML looks ok, and thinks XML sucks? (a.k.a. me) I have an idea for a project that looks more and more like a browser app.
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Write a calculator! :-D I've forgotten everything* I learned in the ASP.net class I took in 2002, including where the book is... I thought I had it right here. * Except for not to do it.
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Can you recommend ressources for someone who is well-versed in C#, has used classic ASP in some projects that are still up and running, can make Frontpage spit out some CSS, doesn't bother with W3C as long as his HTML looks ok, and thinks XML sucks? (a.k.a. me) I have an idea for a project that looks more and more like a browser app.
Crikey! As long as you have been here, spouting wisdom for all of us to absorb, I assumed you would be an expert. I was going to ask you for advice when I finally decide to jump back into web development! Sheesh... One of the books I've found to be most helpful, though it's a bit dated, is Active Server Pages 3.0, by WROX Press. I don't know whether it's still in print, but give it a look. If you can't find it, I have a copy, and a scanner. I don't have a lot of free time for scanning, but I'm sure we can work something out. As a side note to anyone reading this; I've found that WROX Press has a knack for weeding out the books that contain little but the platforms used by prima donnas who love to see their names in print, but rarely have anything worth reading for those who want to learn something of value, unlike MS Press. Their pricing is somewhat friendlier, too. I highly recommend them.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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ColinM123 wrote:
You can have a look at the ASP.Net MVC stuff http://www.asp.net/learn/mvc\[^\]
These are all really well done tutorials esp. the MVC Storefront application. I'm loving ASP.NET MVC so far.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
I'm loving ASP.NET MVC so far
have you ever used it ? i mean in a project ?
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Can you recommend ressources for someone who is well-versed in C#, has used classic ASP in some projects that are still up and running, can make Frontpage spit out some CSS, doesn't bother with W3C as long as his HTML looks ok, and thinks XML sucks? (a.k.a. me) I have an idea for a project that looks more and more like a browser app.
I will recommend you a book (APress : Pro ASP.NET 3.5 in C# 2008).I think, You cannot learn technology completely by reading websites/articles. You can always skip the chapters that you already know in the book.
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Can you recommend ressources for someone who is well-versed in C#, has used classic ASP in some projects that are still up and running, can make Frontpage spit out some CSS, doesn't bother with W3C as long as his HTML looks ok, and thinks XML sucks? (a.k.a. me) I have an idea for a project that looks more and more like a browser app.
as much as people will point you towards asp.net mvc .. avoid it. I programmed in php using mvc style... and spent a lot of my time at sitepoint.com/forums even created master pages in php before i even knew about asp.net. after seeing the power of asp.net webforms at dev connections I quickly realized that in mvc i spent most of my time developing my own framework and less time on the actual application. asp.net webform framework is complete (managing state, name collisions, user controls, httphandlers, provider model) get a copy of: ASP.NET 3.5 Unleashed: Stephen Walther and read ch 30 and everything about custom controls. www.mixhacks.com is developed with primarily with templated custom controls. Also notice that all javascript is in header section. To handle clean url's I use apache proxy (enabled for www.robusthaven.com) you also have to replace the form tag action property to an empty string. By the way the actual asp.net project is a controller and my templated controls are the views which I bind my model to. (So there you have it.. an mvc approach which is testable without asp.net mvc.)
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No specific resources, but I would recommend: Learn and understand just what ASP.NET is doing. Often I find that, behind the scenes, it's doing a whole lot of stuff that, frankly, is wasting bandwidth and resources for the sake of 'instant gratification'. Go back to basics where you can. Learn Javascript. If you are doing a weborms application, I find that javascript is the hard bit. Understand how to access local objects in javascript (because .Net renames everything, it's not as simple as you might think sometimes) Learn Javascript. Yeah - I said it once and I said it again. Inject your javascript from your code behind if you want, which can be useful, but remember it has to be injected every time - so if it is 'static code', keep it separate if you can. Develop lots of test projects before you go all in. If you're not used to the differences, even simple things can stuff you up! Separate your design and your code. CSS everything (so you can change the design more easily) and use plenty of <div> and not too many tables. Test the form at every stage with at least IE and FF Make sure you know how to debug javascript! Search CP and other places for resources showing you how to do exactly what you ant, rather than re-inventing the wheel. good example - I needed 'cascading' (aka drilldown) combos on a page. There's lots of ways to do it, but I discovered a few examples, and learned more about what they were doing than I would have writing it myself. Don't make the mistake of thinking AJAX will help you. It's great when appropriate, but many many times it is just too slow for use in a 'real' app. Great on a web site (in some cases) but I replaced a lot of my AJAX with javascript using arrays - slightly longer to load the page, but instant on the client rather than waiting for a callback. Just my 2c ramble!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Todd Smith wrote:
I'm loving ASP.NET MVC so far
have you ever used it ? i mean in a project ?
Previously? no. But I'm using it for a complete rewrite of our current online quoting system which is written in asp 1.0 (not done by me).
Todd Smith