Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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You would be surprised at the number of developers applying for a job that can't actually program.
Todd Smith
My philosophy (when recruiting) has always been to have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc. And I make it clear that I will terminate them if they are not capable, so they should withdraw their application if they feel they may not be able to perform to my expectation, or they may find themselves sacked. Surely that is the way to go - I don't want to have to try to ascertain someone's ability in a few minutes, I don;t think it reasonable to expect anyone to demonstrate their ability in a few minutes. So if they want to lie (or exaggerate) on their resume - then that's a risk they are taking. So far I have only had one person actually call up post interview and say 'nope - I don't think I can do the job (he gave himself 9/10 for Delphi Programming, but admitted that he'd only dabbled at home a bit) and I have only had to sack one person within the probationary period (amongst other things, he typed in a whole load of .ini file information with letter Os instead of zeros and couldn't see what was wrong, and developed a utility application using a pirated copy of Delphi 5 (we used 4) that he installed on his work PC, and put it live without going through any of our testing procedures.) He is now an IT Manager (figures!)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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To see who'll jump through hoops? Or maybe it's his homework assignment? The oddest requirement I've had was an employer asking: "In a language of your choice, write a program to sort a list of numbers." Huh? That's awful non-specific.
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Hey - maybe next time I recruit I could ask them to write a programming article - then I can put it on CP as my own work and take the glory...
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Clearly you should have just taken the programming task and immediately headed to CP, and in the Lounge (or another completely inappropriate forum) posted a message like this: HELPZ!! NEED CODEZ URGENTZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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I'd have done it in French! Pour i = un au cent { Si (arr[i] moins arr[+1]) {swapper(i);} } fin;
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Hmmm... I did write my version in C...
# define pour for... My first (evil) thought wasperl -e "print ( join ( \" \" , sort ( @ARGV ) ) )" 1 3 2 6 5 4but it does string sorting (stupid scripting language :mad: ). Then I considered using C# and aList.Sort, but decided it might still be too smartassy, and I was only just learning C# then anyway. -
Clearly you should have just taken the programming task and immediately headed to CP, and in the Lounge (or another completely inappropriate forum) posted a message like this: HELPZ!! NEED CODEZ URGENTZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
Don't think I wasn't tempted! I was just worried that the client(who is obviously a decent chap) might frequent, and may put 2 & 2 together!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Hmmm... I did write my version in C...
# define pour for... My first (evil) thought wasperl -e "print ( join ( \" \" , sort ( @ARGV ) ) )" 1 3 2 6 5 4but it does string sorting (stupid scripting language :mad: ). Then I considered using C# and aList.Sort, but decided it might still be too smartassy, and I was only just learning C# then anyway.What about PHP - I think that has SORTA to sort an array :) Or German? ACHTUNG! BRITISHER PIGDOG! SORT! SORT! (sorry to any krauts out there, it's my British upbringing) Or (and here's my favourite) Cockney... Sorted! :laugh:
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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What about PHP - I think that has SORTA to sort an array :) Or German? ACHTUNG! BRITISHER PIGDOG! SORT! SORT! (sorry to any krauts out there, it's my British upbringing) Or (and here's my favourite) Cockney... Sorted! :laugh:
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Or just throw it across the desk to one of your underlings... "Here, sort this sh1t out would ya?"
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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We have the agency give dev's a test that we wrote before we'll interview them. Cuts the number of people we need to interview by about 60%
What sort of test is that - and can you be sure hat you are cutting out the 60% that would be crap at the job and not 60% ho would be good at it but just hate having to do stupid tests just to get an interview? (I wouldn't mind so much if it was the employer insisting on the test but this is from the agency, for the agency)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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We have the agency give dev's a test that we wrote before we'll interview them. Cuts the number of people we need to interview by about 60%
Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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My philosophy (when recruiting) has always been to have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc. And I make it clear that I will terminate them if they are not capable, so they should withdraw their application if they feel they may not be able to perform to my expectation, or they may find themselves sacked. Surely that is the way to go - I don't want to have to try to ascertain someone's ability in a few minutes, I don;t think it reasonable to expect anyone to demonstrate their ability in a few minutes. So if they want to lie (or exaggerate) on their resume - then that's a risk they are taking. So far I have only had one person actually call up post interview and say 'nope - I don't think I can do the job (he gave himself 9/10 for Delphi Programming, but admitted that he'd only dabbled at home a bit) and I have only had to sack one person within the probationary period (amongst other things, he typed in a whole load of .ini file information with letter Os instead of zeros and couldn't see what was wrong, and developed a utility application using a pirated copy of Delphi 5 (we used 4) that he installed on his work PC, and put it live without going through any of our testing procedures.) He is now an IT Manager (figures!)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc.
I thought that was the standard MO?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Or just throw it across the desk to one of your underlings... "Here, sort this sh1t out would ya?"
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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Father Christmas wrote:
have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc.
I thought that was the standard MO?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Not in my experience - some interviewers seem intent on giving the third degree and treating it as a favour to you to allow you to work there. There's also a few instances I've come across where complete incompetents have been hired, and rather than firing them (which means the manager would have to go back to HR and admit their mistake) they've just been sort of swept under the carpet. Had one guy was completely crap, working with me (I wasn't involved in recruitment). I'd estimated a simple change to take about half a day (my minimum estimate - nothing takes less time than 1/2 day). It took this guy two weeks - and he stuffed it up. I fixed it (in about an hour plus deployment time). Did he get sacked? Berated? Anything? NO - I just ended up doing all the development work, and he basically did data entry on a developers salary AND the boss gave him a good reference when he resigned - and said to me he had been hoping he'd leave earlier, with all the boring jobs he'd been given!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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We have the agency give dev's a test that we wrote before we'll interview them. Cuts the number of people we need to interview by about 60%
CP has a simple test it gives people applying. I don't see the big deal. Can you imagine some of the people who'd apply to CP ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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What sort of test is that - and can you be sure hat you are cutting out the 60% that would be crap at the job and not 60% ho would be good at it but just hate having to do stupid tests just to get an interview? (I wouldn't mind so much if it was the employer insisting on the test but this is from the agency, for the agency)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
What sort of test is that - and can you be sure hat you are cutting out the 60% that would be crap at the job and not 60% ho would be good at it but just hate having to do stupid tests just to get an interview?
If they come to the interview with the idea that they're too good to sit a test then they can just bugger off
Father Christmas wrote:
(I wouldn't mind so much if it was the employer insisting on the test but this is from the agency, for the agency)
Yep, different kettle of fish
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Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests. The fact we go to so much effort to ensure we get good people is a reason applicants should want to work here. If people come in with the idea that they are too good, too experienced to sit a test they wont get far.
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CP has a simple test it gives people applying. I don't see the big deal. Can you imagine some of the people who'd apply to CP ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
We go to most of the uni's in Australia and do presentations to the final year students telling them how absolutely fantastic we are. You can probably imagine how many applicants we get. We also run a competition at the uni careers day where they write some code and someone gets an iPhone or something similar
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests. The fact we go to so much effort to ensure we get good people is a reason applicants should want to work here. If people come in with the idea that they are too good, too experienced to sit a test they wont get far.
Josh Gray wrote:
Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests.
Just quietly, if that's the attitude that shines through during the process, I'm fairly sure I know what my response would be!! ;)
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!