Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
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_Damian S_ wrote:
So you are looking for graduates and getting them to do the tests... that's vastly different to expecting experienced developers to undertake the same tests...
Everyone gets the same tests. Their experience level is taken into account when considering the results though
I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) going to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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What about PHP - I think that has SORTA to sort an array :) Or German? ACHTUNG! BRITISHER PIGDOG! SORT! SORT! (sorry to any krauts out there, it's my British upbringing) Or (and here's my favourite) Cockney... Sorted! :laugh:
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Hey ... your welcome to make some "krauts jokes" ... but please use google or something to get the spelling right. The only correct word there is "ACHTUNG" (bye the way: we germans don't YELL ALL THE TIME) I guess with "BRITISHER PIGDOG" you are refering to the common british crossing between a pig and a dog? - that's "Schweinehund" in German (but it's a rather weak insult). And "SORT" would be somthing like "sortiere!".
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I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) going to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
When you get 200+ applicants a month you just cant interview them all.
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
They're probably trying to cull out the wannabes early. Why are you concerned? You know you smoked it, else why would you apply for a senior position? At the worst, your code probably made the rest of the applicants look like idiots. Look on the bright side; if you don't happen to get an offer, you can always bill the agency for two hours of coding. :-D I know it's insulting, an assault on your integrity. But try to see it from their side. Agencies - well, headhunter tribes - are a dime a dozen. Anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves recruiting specialists, and probably get away with it. People who work in HR are not the sharpest tools in the drawer, as we all know. One way to become recognized as a credible source is to pre-screen applicants so that the client never sees the obvious losers that would be pounding on the door if they resorted to the classified ads. Visit the VB forum for examples. I've been asked to take a test a couple of times, and I don't resent it. I know from personal experience that there are some excellent fakes out there. I had one when I was with Northrop, when I was tasked to hire 120 engineers in 30 days - yes, they still believe in the 40 ships theory... The guy knew all the buzzwords, and was current on all the latest trade magazines. He was a self-starting go-getter who could have been a valuable asset to our team. So I hired him. After two months he hadn't drawn a single line on a piece of paper, so I did some digging. The university he listed on his application as the grantor of his BSEE never heard of him. The high school he graduated from, the same. So I sat him down for a talk. To his credit, he didn't deny his lies. He always wanted to be an engineer, but never had the chance to obtain the education that serves as a foundation for us all - a degree in engineering doesn't make one an engineer, but it is a license to begin learning engineering. I had to let him go, but I would have happily written a letter of recommendation to any school of engineering for him. What balls! :-D The point of all that is that we can all be fooled, and there are some excellent phonies in this world. It's not unreasonable for an agency to ask for a small demonstration of your ability before they risk their reputation recommending you to their client. I wish you luck, and hope for the best outcome for you. :-D
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I personally dont mind taking a test, but the things some of the clients ask you to do within a given timeframe can be completely befuddling. I had an interview for senior developer at this bank - one of the questions they asked was for me to write a sudoku puzzle solver!!! i dont even plat sudoku! :confused:
No one knows the things of a man save the spirit of that man, likewise no one knows the things of God save the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
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Father Christmas wrote:
What sort of test is that - and can you be sure hat you are cutting out the 60% that would be crap at the job and not 60% ho would be good at it but just hate having to do stupid tests just to get an interview?
If they come to the interview with the idea that they're too good to sit a test then they can just bugger off
Father Christmas wrote:
(I wouldn't mind so much if it was the employer insisting on the test but this is from the agency, for the agency)
Yep, different kettle of fish
I used to test applicants with a 10 or 15 question multiple choice before the interview began. The test was designed in such a way that a basic knowledge would get you 25%, competent was 50% and above, and if you got all correct you'd have to be pretty special. It had questions as simple as 'what is the correct way to declare an array' and ones like 'which of the following four table relationships best describes a many-to-many relationship'. After the test was complete you could see the level of confidence with people. If they didn't score that well but were confident it was just because the test didn't match their backgrounds, that was OK. If the didn't score well and had no idea why, then you knew that they were chancing it. I had experienced developers complete the test professionally and calmly, and I think they were happy that the person interviewing them actually appeared to have a clue, rather than some jockey from HR. Because if you get interviewed by a person with no clue, chances are when you start work, you'll be surrounded by incompetent people who all easily slipped past the interviewer. You would be floored to know how many people get past recruiters with absolutely no programming idea at all. Generally it's people trying to switch languages and pick up experience on the job, or perhaps helpdesk people trying to move themselves up the food chain. I once asked a guy what he liked most about vb.net (back when it was new) over vb6 and he answered that the 'todo list' at the bottom was pretty neat. I surmised he had opened the IDE once and looked at it, and this was the sum total of his vb.net experience. I think interview tests are more important than meangingless questions like 'where do you see yoruself in five years' (answer: not working for you, hopefullly) and 'what's your biggest fault?' (answer: I haven't yet managed to find a way to avoid going to interviews)
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development | Do you need a specialist DotNetNuke developer? Plithy remark available in Beta 2
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_Damian S_ wrote:
I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
When you get 200+ applicants a month you just cant interview them all.
Josh Gray wrote:
200+ applicants a month
Holy snapping duck pooh!
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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To see who'll jump through hoops? Or maybe it's his homework assignment? The oddest requirement I've had was an employer asking: "In a language of your choice, write a program to sort a list of numbers." Huh? That's awful non-specific.
SELECT
C1
FROM
(
SELECT 1 AS C1
UNION ALL
SELECT 5
UNION ALL
SELECT 7
UNION ALL
SELECT 2
) AS InnerSelect
ORDER BY
C1 ASC -
Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
What's as bad is when the head hunter doesn't know shit from Shinola. I'm a technical writer who started when strings of ones and zeros were considered a high order language, and I even have a couple of books and papers on SDLC documentation. Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV. She's probably right. There is a difference in documenting the stability augmentation system for the space shuttle and some animation for yet another social networking system. Go figure.
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I'd have done it in French! Pour i = un au cent { Si (arr[i] moins arr[+1]) {swapper(i);} } fin;
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
We're doing a 'stupid' test too. Why? Because I don't want to spend several weeks or months cleaning someone else's mess. We've had a lot of so called 'professionals' coming in who can't program for ****. :) . But a half hour coding excersize should be enough though.
V.
Stop smoking so you can: Enjoy longer the money you save. Moviereview Archive -
Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
While I can understand your feelings about this test, I think they could have a use to cut off part of the applicants. I was once assigned a new co-worker who was supposed to help me in writing a brand new application; after I spend a week teaching him every basic skill of... VB.Net, I had to explain him how to write a simple
forloop: we had to leave him, to search for someone more skilled (maybe he was a PHP or Cobol guru, but this was not helpful to us). After that experience we decided to ask applicants to write some trivial code: of course, this code is totally useless in real world applications, but we can understand if the applicant is totally new to the technology (we may still be interested in him, but at least we'll know we need to spend some time in her education) or is readily deployable in our development team. Of course, this method is not perfect and is not the only criteria to choose among candidates. Just hope it helps you to recover from your "madness" :-D :cool:A Merry Christmas to All!:cool:Marco Turrini
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Not in my experience - some interviewers seem intent on giving the third degree and treating it as a favour to you to allow you to work there. There's also a few instances I've come across where complete incompetents have been hired, and rather than firing them (which means the manager would have to go back to HR and admit their mistake) they've just been sort of swept under the carpet. Had one guy was completely crap, working with me (I wasn't involved in recruitment). I'd estimated a simple change to take about half a day (my minimum estimate - nothing takes less time than 1/2 day). It took this guy two weeks - and he stuffed it up. I fixed it (in about an hour plus deployment time). Did he get sacked? Berated? Anything? NO - I just ended up doing all the development work, and he basically did data entry on a developers salary AND the boss gave him a good reference when he resigned - and said to me he had been hoping he'd leave earlier, with all the boring jobs he'd been given!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
Had one guy was completely crap, working with me (I wasn't involved in recruitment). I'd estimated a simple change to take about half a day (my minimum estimate - nothing takes less time than 1/2 day). It took this guy two weeks - and he stuffed it up. I fixed it (in about an hour plus deployment time). Did he get sacked? Berated? Anything? NO - I just ended up doing all the development work, and he basically did data entry on a developers salary AND the boss gave him a good reference when he resigned - and said to me he had been hoping he'd leave earlier, with all the boring jobs he'd been given!
I've met quite a few like that in the Gulf, specifically Kuwait.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
It's the value they add. (add fingerquotes liberally) I'd send you a questionnaire first. And I'd have you write code during the interview.
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Wouldn't have thought you of all people would need a job this time of year! Or are you looking for a second job to fill that awkward gap between December 26th and December 24th? :)
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
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My philosophy (when recruiting) has always been to have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc. And I make it clear that I will terminate them if they are not capable, so they should withdraw their application if they feel they may not be able to perform to my expectation, or they may find themselves sacked. Surely that is the way to go - I don't want to have to try to ascertain someone's ability in a few minutes, I don;t think it reasonable to expect anyone to demonstrate their ability in a few minutes. So if they want to lie (or exaggerate) on their resume - then that's a risk they are taking. So far I have only had one person actually call up post interview and say 'nope - I don't think I can do the job (he gave himself 9/10 for Delphi Programming, but admitted that he'd only dabbled at home a bit) and I have only had to sack one person within the probationary period (amongst other things, he typed in a whole load of .ini file information with letter Os instead of zeros and couldn't see what was wrong, and developed a utility application using a pirated copy of Delphi 5 (we used 4) that he installed on his work PC, and put it live without going through any of our testing procedures.) He is now an IT Manager (figures!)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Programming tests are crucial when hiring programmers IMHO. We have recently been hiring and the simple coding tests really sorted the wheat from the chaff. You'd be amazed at home many 'experienced' developers are actually winging it (or have overplayed their language skills. We had a few obvious Java types applying for C++ jobs and they floundered on the coding and language tests). We make candidates write a couple of small C++ functions using a pen and paper. We also ask a bunch of questions about the C++ language, and show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors and ask them to find as many as they can in a set time. If I was applying for a programming job then I would expect to write code in the interview. If I was bidding to paint a portrait of your family then you'd want to see examples of my work yes? :) How is coding any different?
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Not in my experience - some interviewers seem intent on giving the third degree and treating it as a favour to you to allow you to work there. There's also a few instances I've come across where complete incompetents have been hired, and rather than firing them (which means the manager would have to go back to HR and admit their mistake) they've just been sort of swept under the carpet. Had one guy was completely crap, working with me (I wasn't involved in recruitment). I'd estimated a simple change to take about half a day (my minimum estimate - nothing takes less time than 1/2 day). It took this guy two weeks - and he stuffed it up. I fixed it (in about an hour plus deployment time). Did he get sacked? Berated? Anything? NO - I just ended up doing all the development work, and he basically did data entry on a developers salary AND the boss gave him a good reference when he resigned - and said to me he had been hoping he'd leave earlier, with all the boring jobs he'd been given!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
In these times of economic turmoil though, with redundancies rife, it is sometimes useful to have a numpty developer buffer :laugh:
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Hey ... your welcome to make some "krauts jokes" ... but please use google or something to get the spelling right. The only correct word there is "ACHTUNG" (bye the way: we germans don't YELL ALL THE TIME) I guess with "BRITISHER PIGDOG" you are refering to the common british crossing between a pig and a dog? - that's "Schweinehund" in German (but it's a rather weak insult). And "SORT" would be somthing like "sortiere!".
Why do you try so hard to destroy the joke?
To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities.
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Hey ... your welcome to make some "krauts jokes" ... but please use google or something to get the spelling right. The only correct word there is "ACHTUNG" (bye the way: we germans don't YELL ALL THE TIME) I guess with "BRITISHER PIGDOG" you are refering to the common british crossing between a pig and a dog? - that's "Schweinehund" in German (but it's a rather weak insult). And "SORT" would be somthing like "sortiere!".
In my youth, English media of one sort or antoher often had war stories, in which the germans would always shout DONNER UND BLITZEN, BRITISHER SCHWEINEHUND and suchlike. No offense meant - and doesn't sortiere mean to exit?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')