GW? Go on then use incorrect evidence and bad science.

Christian Graus

Yes, this is definitely a factor ( just read a book on it, actually ).

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

John Carson

Yeah, shrewd move. Ignore what the majority of the world's experts say, and put your faith in an unqualified journalist, refutations of whose nonsense are readily available to anyone who can Google. Sometimes I despair for the world.

John Carson

Dalek Dave

Christian Graus wrote:

I didn't one vote you, BTW.

I didn't assume you did.

Christian Graus wrote:

Dalek Dave wrote: The Pro GW lobby has NEVER been able to provide ANY peer reviewed, unambiguous proof of ANY of it's claims. I don't believe this. Like I said, I know people who have access to raw data, and they have known for some time that the earth is warming.

I am not denial the 'Evidence' of warming, I cannot however see any evidence that anything we do can alter it. There is also 'Evidence' of cooling, and I am just as sceptical of that. True science needs cold facts laid out in an objective way, where not only the data is shown, but the source of that data can be interogated and questioned. All 'Models and Simulations' should be freely analysed too, something that the GW lot have frequently refused. Why I wonder? If GW exists, we deal with it, if it is shown to be false, who will believe scientists the next time something bad happens. Crying Wolf is dangerous.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

soap brain

Meh.

Dalek Dave

John Carson wrote:

Ignore what the majority of the world's experts say

Who are these experts? What do they say? Please provide proof that there is GW, the world is waiting! Why is Arctic sea Ice covering a bigger area today than 30 years ago? Why are most of the world glaciers expanding? Why is the sun producing an increasing amout of enery? Why is our axial shift bringing us into a more temperate climate? Why are people thinking that Humans are capable of doing this, when ONE VOLCANO could put more shit into the air than Human Beings could manage in a Century!

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

Christian Graus

Dalek Dave wrote:

I am not denial the 'Evidence' of warming, I cannot however see any evidence that anything we do can alter it.

OK, well, in that I perhaps agree. It's probable that at least some warming that is occuring is natural, the mix of what is man made or not, is not clear, and the GW lobby seems ignorant of the possibility that temperatures can just change naturally. I also would agree that it's not clear therefore how much we can hope to do about it. I sure don't think the seas are about to drown us, or any of the other more alarmist claims flying around.

Dalek Dave wrote:

All 'Models and Simulations' should be freely analysed too, something that the GW lot have frequently refused

I've not read anything on this at all. I would be scared to ask for links, b/c there's so much polarised opinion out there that it's hard to get to the facts.

Dalek Dave wrote:

If GW exists, we deal with it, if it is shown to be false, who will believe scientists the next time something bad happens. Crying Wolf is dangerous.

We as a species, always cry wolf. Each generation has it's prophets of doom.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

hairy_hats

Dalek Dave wrote:

Why is our axial shift bringing us into a more temperate climate?

We go from winter to summer every year Dave...thought you might have noticed by now... ;)

Dalek Dave

:) I know all about that, I mean that the precession is causing us to wobble on our axis, and that is partially to do with the changes. We are nearer the sun in winter, and further away in summer, but the (admittedly Very) slight alteration each year means that the axis alters over time. If we had summer when we were nearer the sun, That would be a major disater! It is useful that we don't given that at this period in earth history, 80 percent of the inhabited land is in the northern hemisphere.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

hairy_hats

Dalek Dave wrote:

We are nearer the sun in winter, and further away in summer, but the (admittedly Very) slight alteration each year means that the axis alters over time. If we had summer when we were nearer the sun, That would be a major disater!

Like they have summer in Australia when we are closer to the Sun, that is a major disaster?

soap brain

Tell me, do you - or anyone else - believe that it's possible to separate fact from fabrication any more?

Dalek Dave

Not really thought about that have you? Look at central Aus, imagine that across Europe and Asia. Imagine Africa drier than it is now. USA can barely cope with water supply as it is without major (Multi-Billion) infrastructure investment. And Australia is a small continent, Eurasian plate is massive, it would be a dustbowl in summer, and Smegging Cold throught winter. The currents would alter, both air and sea, it could cause massive fish depopulation, thus also bird depopulation, mass starvaion, breakdown of society etc. And this could happen tomorrow too if a huge volcanoe goes off, so much for mankind, nature can really f*ck us over.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

Dalek Dave

Yes, journalism does, it seperates the wheat from the chaff, then publishes the chaff! Only in mathematics is there truth.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

hairy_hats

Precession takes 26,000 years to do a complete circuit, if it caused such a massive environmental disaster that regularly then I doubt we'd have the rich ecosystem we do today.

Dalek Dave

Ok, but also the 11 year solar cycle,the hale cycle (22yrs), the 90 years (Glassberg I think) and the 200 year and 2000 year cycles, ( Can't remember names). These all combine differently. There is that fact that the earth's orbit is always varying, as well as precession, and that the earh itself is dynamic, producing differing amouts of volcanic gases and particulates year on year. It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict this stuff.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

soap brain

Either your post was expressly engineered to resist a decent response, or this headache is really getting to me. :( .

hairy_hats

The change in the Sun's output has been shown *not* to be part of the current climate change (e.g. some planets warm while others cool at the same time). If it is "IMPOSSIBLE to predict this stuff", then the current changes may indeed be down to human activity...or they may not. The nay-sayers cannot prove that it isn't and their religious fervour against AGW is illogical. Surely only a "wait and see what better data tells us" approach is the only way to proceed.

R Giskard Reventlov

Steve_Harris wrote:

The nay-sayers cannot prove that it isn't and their religious fervour against AGW is illogical

Works both ways.

Steve_Harris wrote:

Surely only a "wait and see what better data tells us" approach is the only way to proceed.

I would agree if it didn't appear that those in favour appear to want to force everyone to believe regardless of any evidence and then spend my hard earnt cash on their foibles. What is getting missed here is that what can we realistically hope to do to halt climate change if it is part of the natural cycle and we simply don't have the technology or resources to change it if, indeed, we should even try? Surely the money would be better spent finding alternate locations for the human race and developing the technologies that will get us there so that we are not tied to one planet. Just my little dream.

me, me, me

Dalek Dave

Steve_Harris wrote:

The change in the Sun's output has been shown *not* to be part of the current climate change

Link please?

Steve_Harris wrote:

(e.g. some planets warm while others cool at the same time).

Logical, local planetary conditions all different.

Steve_Harris wrote:

If it is "IMPOSSIBLE to predict this stuff", then the current changes may indeed be down to human activity...or they may not

Most climate change in the last, say 4.3 billion years, has not been down to humans. Why should we think it is us now?

Steve_Harris wrote:

The nay-sayers cannot prove that it isn't and their religious fervour against AGW is illogical.

Their religious fervour against bad and misleading science, against being lied to and against scare tactics with no evidence to back it up however is justified. Why is it illogical to accept something without proof? Surely logic dictates that something is proved.

Steve_Harris wrote:

Surely only a "wait and see what better data tells us" approach is the only way to proceed.

Agreed, so why tax us now and make us do things that ARE DAMAGING the planet and ourselves.

------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke

Oakman

Dalek Dave wrote:

Only in mathematics is there truth.

Don't be silly. When she looks up into your eyes and says, "I will love you forever, if you buy me that ring," that's truth. . . .isn't it? :~

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Lost User

John Carson wrote:

Ignore what the majority of the world's experts say

Lies. Only 219 scientists signed the Bali letter. Why? Because there are only 219 scientists in the world who believe this crap. The rest of the touted 2000 or so are government employees and other politically interested parties.

John Carson wrote:

put your faith in an unqualified journalist

Perhaps if the editors of science magazines weren't forced to be politically correct there would be debate in them rather than in the media?

John Carson wrote:

Sometimes I despair for the world.

Of course you do. All the time. And thats your problem. You think the worlkd is in trouble and you can save it. What a bizare supermanesque kind of delusion you have there John. You really ought to get some therapy because in reality you are insignificant. To the world, to nature, and to man.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription