Oh goody! More 'stimulus' surprises!
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L'il fool, I've started playing the same game that you fools play. I suspect that eventutally others will get tired of the behavior of you "community" kiddies and will join me in this effort to turn this Sandbox back into a Soapbox. I can afford to be patient.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now? And that the argument that a fat wallet is the best determiner of "benefit to society" has a couple of holes in it?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Last answer was too flip.
Oakman wrote:
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now?
Nope. If you have a health insurance policy (or certificate of coverage if group insurance) then you're entitled to the care covered by your contract (or master contract, if group). The only decisions made then are: Individual insurance: was the condition pre-existing? If so, it isn't covered unless the contractually stipulated time period (usually a year if it isn't ridered) has expired. If it is group coverage, then there's no pre-ex considerations. Is the treatment medically necessary: a decision the health insurance company makes based on AMA guidelines. For example, you determine you want a surgical procedure to reduce the size of your tits. That reduction isn't medically necessary and will not be covered. Is the treament experimental: if so, it will not be coveed. For example, you have cancer and your doctor want to take a turkey baster full of jalepeno extract and shoot it up you behind. This is an unproven treatment and coverage will be denied. === Additionally, in some regards you're correct. All of the above presumes you have insurance coverage and many don't. So in some regards, if your wallet is thin a rationing decision has been made. You, however, are the one who made it either at a tender age when you decided that making babies in the back seat of someone's car was much more fun than worrying about grades, or, when you decided that the hot rod you bought was a better investment than health insurance. === Even more additionally, rationing is done if you're a part of a government program. Medicaid or Medicare rations out the wahzoo, because these are governemt programs and are limited by: the doctors who'll be willing to play government games and/or the limited resources of tax payers. === Bottom line, the real rationing happens when you're in a government run program, not the free market.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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L'il fool, I've started playing the same game that you fools play. I suspect that eventutally others will get tired of the behavior of you "community" kiddies and will join me in this effort to turn this Sandbox back into a Soapbox. I can afford to be patient.
I have yet to see somebody else apart from you repeatedly post messages devoid of content apart from a link, and who univotes everybody who attempts to have a discussion. Don't think I didn't notice the nice grey colour you sent my post, by the way. Incidentally, the only way the Sandbox can be turned back into the Soapbox is by wiping out every one of your posts. I would explain, but I don't plan to waste my time. I have OSDev to do
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For us, you'd need to have an MRI on your head to sit there and justify paying for it. A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
EliottA wrote:
A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
pure bullshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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EliottA wrote:
A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
pure bullshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have yet to see somebody else apart from you repeatedly post messages devoid of content apart from a link, and who univotes everybody who attempts to have a discussion. Don't think I didn't notice the nice grey colour you sent my post, by the way. Incidentally, the only way the Sandbox can be turned back into the Soapbox is by wiping out every one of your posts. I would explain, but I don't plan to waste my time. I have OSDev to do
Computafreak wrote:
I have OSDev to do
Ever since Walmart laid him off, he has all the time in the world.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Oakman wrote:
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now?
Nope.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I don't know why people don't also realize that Insurance is wealth redistribution. I've never filed an insurance claim in my life. Haven't needed to. Never in an accident. Never in bad health. Yet I pay premiums so some rich guy doesn't when an uninsured motorist wipes out his Hummer. Take my money and cover that guys loss. Socialism with profit for Insurance company shareholders. But, this is the law... and I distinctly remember Republicans backing it.
This statement is false
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Maybe to you. If a governments responsibilities do not lie within the people, where do they??
EliottA wrote:
a governments responsibilities
Defend the border / nation. nothing more.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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EliottA wrote:
a governments responsibilities
Defend the border / nation. nothing more.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Sounds more to me like a job for the military. A governments job is to help the people in all aspects of their lives, a border / security issue is handled by the military under the supervision of government. It has much more responsibility then that. This isn't 1400, it isn't god eat dog. People should have a sense of togetherness and should have established a basic set of principles. One of those principles should be if you're sick, I don't care how much money you have, come here and get help.
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EliottA wrote:
a governments responsibilities
Defend the border / nation. nothing more.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
That's not *quite* how it works when adopted practically. You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
EliottA wrote:
You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
Excuse me. That is exactly how it works. Rationing is the only cost control we have on our system. Ask any surgeon if he is performing as many surgeries as he is capable of doing and the answer is almost unanimously no. They stop when they get to their allowed number each week/month/year. I asked the ENT specialist this question and he said that he is allowed one morning a week in the surgery room and he would prefer to be doing 2-3 full days of surgery. Hence the 2 month wait for my sons ear surgery.
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
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Sounds more to me like a job for the military. A governments job is to help the people in all aspects of their lives, a border / security issue is handled by the military under the supervision of government. It has much more responsibility then that. This isn't 1400, it isn't god eat dog. People should have a sense of togetherness and should have established a basic set of principles. One of those principles should be if you're sick, I don't care how much money you have, come here and get help.
EliottA wrote:
A governments job is to help the people in all aspects of their lives
we disagree, strenously. your definition of a government sounds more like a social cluib that I was forced to join.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I don't know why people don't also realize that Insurance is wealth redistribution. I've never filed an insurance claim in my life. Haven't needed to. Never in an accident. Never in bad health. Yet I pay premiums so some rich guy doesn't when an uninsured motorist wipes out his Hummer. Take my money and cover that guys loss. Socialism with profit for Insurance company shareholders. But, this is the law... and I distinctly remember Republicans backing it.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
I don't know why people don't also realize that Insurance is wealth redistribution.
Strictly speaking most transactions are wealth redistribution. If I give my son a couple of hundred, that's wealth redistributions just as much as if some guy gets ahold of my bankcard and cleans out my checkinging account.
Synaptrik wrote:
Yet I pay premiums so some rich guy doesn't when an uninsured motorist wipes out his Hummer.
If you are, then your insurance rates have probably been set by an insurance commissioner or some such, not by the insurance company. In a perfect world the insurance companies are running casinos. They bet that you will pay them more in premiums than you collect. You bet the reverse. Just like Vegas, the house always wins. Part of the problem is that these days, some insurance is simply a prepay option - dental insurance for instance. Almost everybody that has it wants to collect on it, every year. The only way the insurance company can stay in business is to charge slightly more than what the average guy collects in benefits in a year for a years coverage. The old idea of insurance being a hedge against catastrophes just doesn't cut it any more.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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EliottA wrote:
A governments job is to help the people in all aspects of their lives
we disagree, strenously. your definition of a government sounds more like a social cluib that I was forced to join.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Synaptrik wrote:
I don't know why people don't also realize that Insurance is wealth redistribution.
Strictly speaking most transactions are wealth redistribution. If I give my son a couple of hundred, that's wealth redistributions just as much as if some guy gets ahold of my bankcard and cleans out my checkinging account.
Synaptrik wrote:
Yet I pay premiums so some rich guy doesn't when an uninsured motorist wipes out his Hummer.
If you are, then your insurance rates have probably been set by an insurance commissioner or some such, not by the insurance company. In a perfect world the insurance companies are running casinos. They bet that you will pay them more in premiums than you collect. You bet the reverse. Just like Vegas, the house always wins. Part of the problem is that these days, some insurance is simply a prepay option - dental insurance for instance. Almost everybody that has it wants to collect on it, every year. The only way the insurance company can stay in business is to charge slightly more than what the average guy collects in benefits in a year for a years coverage. The old idea of insurance being a hedge against catastrophes just doesn't cut it any more.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
a prepay option - dental insurance for instance
correct - the very reason benefits are severly limited. Vision coverage is similar.
Oakman wrote:
The only way the insurance company can stay in business is to charge slightly more than what the average guy collects in benefits in a year for a years coverage.
You're taking it too far. Major medical coverage is a hedge against catastrophe as is more specific contracts called, "dread disease" - typically coverage for cancer or heart attacks. You also have indemnity contracts such as you see advertised by the duck (AFLAK - not sure of the spelling), these pay a daily cash benefit under defined circumstances.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Britain has been utilizing state-ran health care for free since the 1940's. Umm, when does this ultimately kick in again??
It's not free. We all pay taxes and people who earn pay National Insurance. It's only free at the point of delivery.
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It's not free. We all pay taxes and people who earn pay National Insurance. It's only free at the point of delivery.
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EliottA wrote:
You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
Then why is it taking two years for a friend of mine in Nova Scotia to get scheduled for an MRI?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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I just cannot WAIT for the country's largest group of retards to be in complete control of health care. :rolleyes: The only thing this bill is designed to 'stimulate' is the gag reflex of 48% of the country. How the Stimulus Bill Could Kill You[^] We watch in horror as these idiots try to handle something like the economic crisis, throwing bailouts willy-nilly without puting the slightest bit of conscious thought into it. Then they decide they need to write a stimulus bill (mostly so Obama can say "see, I'm doing stuff"). So, they start with the realization that they've throw more than a trillion dollars away. So what's the next logical step when debt is the problem? Go another trillion in debt and waste 75% of it on crap for your socialist agenda, of course! Are these really the morons you want in charge of the health of you and your children? The only good government is a small government, but the people (52% of them anyway) have spoken. If there was any justice in the world, they'd flush that turd of a bill, burn Peloci at the steak, and write something up that actually pertained to economic stimulus. Never before have I feared the future, but today's a different story.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
If there was any justice in the world, they'd flush that turd of a bill, burn Peloci at the steak, and write something up that actually pertained to economic stimulus. Never before have I feared the future, but today's a different story.
If there was any justice in the world the federal reserve would be abolished and we would not be in a recession to begin with.
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EliottA wrote:
Apparently. You have more of a dog eat dog point of view.
yes, I do. We come from two vastly different perspectives, doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I much prefer a society where government is severly limited. The trade off is freedom to make personal choices versus having those choices made for you. It is really hard to explain, but given the choice I choose limited government.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.