Oh goody! More 'stimulus' surprises!
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EliottA wrote:
I'd relax there big guy, Stalin and Hitler's policies can't exactly be catagorized as "helping people in all aspects of their lives". They sought more to control then to help.
There is no difference between the power to control and the power to help. There is no such thing as "good" political power and "bad" political power. The power to do good is indistinquishable from the power to do bad. They are exactly the same thing.
EliottA wrote:
A government only has the power to do what the people governed allow it to do. The people created the government.
That is pure nonsense. What you are describing is the ultimate example of trading freedom for security. Being cared for is for children, not free adults. Freedom and responsibility mean exactly the same thing. When you say you wish to be free, you are saying that you wish to be responsible for providing for your own needs. There is no other definition of freedom possible.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
There is no difference between the power to control and the power to help. There is no such thing as "good" political power and "bad" political power. The power to do good is indistinquishable from the power to do bad. They are exactly the same thing.
You're a little naive there. Power, like anything else comes in degrees. If you choose to see things in black and white then hell yes, the power to help if equitable to the power to control completely, even when compared pound to pound.
Stan Shannon wrote:
What you are describing is the ultimate example of trading freedom for security
No, what I am describing is the Government pooling resources of the people to help the health of the people as a whole. You can sit there and tout how I'm socialistic or communistic I am, but I live in a free and liberal country that enjoys the same rights you do, except I have free health care. Cross the border, have some. You'd be surprised how many of you do.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That is the most horrifying comment I have ever heard made. It was precisely such attititudes that made Hitler and Stalin possible.
I'd relax there big guy, Stalin and Hitler's policies can't exactly be catagorized as "helping people in all aspects of their lives". They sought more to control then to help.
Stan Shannon wrote:
A government that has the power to give you everything you need has the power to take everything you have. Personal responsibility, the wherewithall to care for one's own needs on one's own way, is a necessary prerequisite for freedom.
That couldn't be more false. A government only has the power to do what the people governed allow it to do. The people created the government.
EliottA wrote:
Stalin and Hitler's policies can't exactly be catagorized as "helping people in all aspects of their lives". They sought more to control then to help.
That's the point though. All they needed to be able to do that was for the people to think that they were being helped in all aspects, which gave dictators the power to do otherwise.
EliottA wrote:
That couldn't be more false. A government only has the power to do what the people governed allow it to do. The people created the government.
Really? The people don't have direct control of the military, the government does. If your statement were true, how would you explain genicidal governments in Africa, Hitler, Stalin, North Korea, North Viet Nam, Mao, USSR? People get fooled into accepting the wrong leaders, and some people never had a say at all. The people don't determine anything, the money does. How do you explain puppet governments?
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EliottA wrote:
Stalin and Hitler's policies can't exactly be catagorized as "helping people in all aspects of their lives". They sought more to control then to help.
That's the point though. All they needed to be able to do that was for the people to think that they were being helped in all aspects, which gave dictators the power to do otherwise.
EliottA wrote:
That couldn't be more false. A government only has the power to do what the people governed allow it to do. The people created the government.
Really? The people don't have direct control of the military, the government does. If your statement were true, how would you explain genicidal governments in Africa, Hitler, Stalin, North Korea, North Viet Nam, Mao, USSR? People get fooled into accepting the wrong leaders, and some people never had a say at all. The people don't determine anything, the money does. How do you explain puppet governments?
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
By the neglect of the majority of people. Most people sit by saying they can't do anything. Someone alone can't do everything. Everyone together can do anything.
BoneSoft wrote:
All they needed to be able to do that was for the people to think that they were being helped in all aspects, which gave dictators the power to do otherwise.
That's not exactly what they did. We are going a little off topic with Hitler and Stalin though I think...
BoneSoft wrote:
People get fooled into accepting the wrong leaders(...)
And People have an option to stand together and make a change. Don't think it ever happened? How did that Castro guy come into power again..?
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BoneSoft wrote:
My government appointed butt-wiper is about 36 years behind on his dooties.
bull-duty. When you were in Asia, you were expected to get your own.
BoneSoft wrote:
In the US that's life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. Government meddling and intervention encroaches on the last two, and occationally on the first.
It's all Ike's fault. If he hadn't ordered the Interstates to be built, we'd all still be Jeffersonians.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
When you were in Asia, you were expected to get your own.
A) how do you know that? B) that was kinda my point, that his statement was way off in left field. The government is responsible for all aspects of your life? There has to be a line somewhere. As soon as the government is responsible for my health, the government will tell me what I can and can't do, eat, drink, smoke, stand near, look at, etc. And they could dictate ANYTHING under the claim that they're protecting my mental health. Responsibility is power.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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By the neglect of the majority of people. Most people sit by saying they can't do anything. Someone alone can't do everything. Everyone together can do anything.
BoneSoft wrote:
All they needed to be able to do that was for the people to think that they were being helped in all aspects, which gave dictators the power to do otherwise.
That's not exactly what they did. We are going a little off topic with Hitler and Stalin though I think...
BoneSoft wrote:
People get fooled into accepting the wrong leaders(...)
And People have an option to stand together and make a change. Don't think it ever happened? How did that Castro guy come into power again..?
EliottA wrote:
And People have an option to stand together and make a change.
Sure. But it's never easy, painless or desirable to need to do that. How bad did things get before the French finally revolted? And how destructive was that revolt to the people and the nation? When the people rise up, a good portion of the people always die for doing so. It's apparenty hard enough to accomplish that it's rarely attempted. Otherwise most of the world would have a government that they like. As is, most don't. Getting to vote for which corrupt bastard is put in government is about as close as any of us ever come. And even then we wind up with some pretty restricted choices. Castro huh... There's a good example of how bad a revolt is for the people. And I don't think they're much better off for it either.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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EliottA wrote:
And People have an option to stand together and make a change.
Sure. But it's never easy, painless or desirable to need to do that. How bad did things get before the French finally revolted? And how destructive was that revolt to the people and the nation? When the people rise up, a good portion of the people always die for doing so. It's apparenty hard enough to accomplish that it's rarely attempted. Otherwise most of the world would have a government that they like. As is, most don't. Getting to vote for which corrupt bastard is put in government is about as close as any of us ever come. And even then we wind up with some pretty restricted choices. Castro huh... There's a good example of how bad a revolt is for the people. And I don't think they're much better off for it either.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
Hey, they have better health care then you do :omg: :omg: :omg:
BoneSoft wrote:
But it's never easy, painless or desirable to need to do that.
Canada did it without that much pain, and no where near a 'good portion' of the population died to get it's independence.
BoneSoft wrote:
It's apparenty hard enough to accomplish that it's rarely attempted. Otherwise most of the world would have a government that they like.
Most of the world never tried it, a good portion of those that did, enjoy the government they have. -Canada -United States of America -Cuba (yes, most Cubans are happy with their government, despite the high profile refugees bound to America) -France There are others.
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Hey, they have better health care then you do :omg: :omg: :omg:
BoneSoft wrote:
But it's never easy, painless or desirable to need to do that.
Canada did it without that much pain, and no where near a 'good portion' of the population died to get it's independence.
BoneSoft wrote:
It's apparenty hard enough to accomplish that it's rarely attempted. Otherwise most of the world would have a government that they like.
Most of the world never tried it, a good portion of those that did, enjoy the government they have. -Canada -United States of America -Cuba (yes, most Cubans are happy with their government, despite the high profile refugees bound to America) -France There are others.
EliottA wrote:
Hey, they have better health care then you do
This[^] paints a different picture. But I don't know that much about it. I'll take your word for it for now. As for Canada, I suppose there are always exceptions to the rule. Point taken.
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Synaptrik wrote:
So you approve of this then?
Nope. What I approve of is using words and phrases correctly.
Synaptrik wrote:
Medicare is 3% overhead
I'm aware. It's one of those facts that really pisses some conservative off.
Synaptrik wrote:
Now how is it that Insurance companies are more appropriate for "Paying" for care than our government through taxes?
I think it's the opt-out feature that is appealing. When you are single, 21, and in good health you don't want to be the guy who pays in.
Synaptrik wrote:
We aren't talking about care. We're talking about payment systems
We've actually discussed both in this thread - sometimes without it being clear what we meant.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Well, being 40 and responsible.... Auto Insurance: 100 a month for 15 years. Never a need to file. 18,000. This should be an escrow account, but I don't get any benefit. Its the guy whose Hummer was rearended by an uninsured that receives that benefit. That's just Auto. Health is much more expensive, and its always cited as part of compensation and why my salary needs to be lower. Never filed a claim. Let me correct that, I used it once. Sprained my ankle, doc hit it with a rubber hammer and said its sprained, stay off of it, it would have been better if it was broken. 10 dollar co-pay to boot. Guess all that insurance that I paid wasn't enough for that visit. (yes I'm being facetious). Insurance is not any better than Universal Health Care. It is not a suitable replacement.
This statement is false
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Oakman wrote:
When you were in Asia, you were expected to get your own.
A) how do you know that? B) that was kinda my point, that his statement was way off in left field. The government is responsible for all aspects of your life? There has to be a line somewhere. As soon as the government is responsible for my health, the government will tell me what I can and can't do, eat, drink, smoke, stand near, look at, etc. And they could dictate ANYTHING under the claim that they're protecting my mental health. Responsibility is power.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
A) how do you know that?
Because I was in Asia, too - just about 2000 miles southwest of you.
BoneSoft wrote:
And they could dictate ANYTHING under the claim that they're protecting my mental health. Responsibility is power.
"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do and how you do it." ~ Rudolph Giuliani I forget. Is he a Republicrat or a Demmican? "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" ~ Thomas Jefferson That last guy actually called himself a Democrat-Republican. The words must have meant something different back then.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Oakman wrote: The only way the insurance company can stay in business is to charge slightly more than what the average guy collects in benefits in a year for a years coverage. You're taking it too far. Major medical coverage is a hedge against catastrophe as is more specific contracts called, "dread disease" - typically coverage for cancer or heart attacks.
I was still talking about office visit coverage. I guess I wasn't clear. Major medical, to me, is still what insurance is supposed to be about.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
You also have indemnity contracts such as you see advertised by the duck (AFLAK - not sure of the spelling), these pay a daily cash benefit under defined circumstances.
As an addition to healthcare, those are great, but I am not sure they should be used to replace a major medical policy - which you probably weren't implying.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
Major medical, to me, is still what insurance is supposed to be about
yep
Oakman wrote:
As an addition to healthcare, those are great
yep == good discussion - enjoyed it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
typically coverage for cancer or heart attacks.
Insurance Companies love to sell these policies - It's like betting a single number on a roulette wheel.
Shepman wrote:
Insurance Companies love to sell these policies - It's like betting a single number on a roulette wheel.
they sure do. I worked for an aggregator (holding company that bought up troubled insurance companies) for a couple of years. One of the companies we picked up sold ONLY dread disease contracts but had screwed up their business model so badly that they were going down the tubes. They had two major problems. The first was that they got into trouble with the Department of Insurance of 5 different states because of marketing problems. Their agents had misrepresented their products. The second was a return of premium feature. The idea here was that if you maintained the contract for 20 years and never filed a claim, you'd get a return of all premiums paid over that period of time. The only way to make money on these was to: hold down expenses (administration - home office, not claims) and make solid investmets that brought in a good return while still being able to pay claims. They couldn't do it and once a significant nummber of these reached the point of being redeemed, they were toast.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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BoneSoft wrote:
A) how do you know that?
Because I was in Asia, too - just about 2000 miles southwest of you.
BoneSoft wrote:
And they could dictate ANYTHING under the claim that they're protecting my mental health. Responsibility is power.
"Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do and how you do it." ~ Rudolph Giuliani I forget. Is he a Republicrat or a Demmican? "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" ~ Thomas Jefferson That last guy actually called himself a Democrat-Republican. The words must have meant something different back then.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
Because I was in Asia, too
Yeah I know, just poking at ya. But for all you know the Japanese government set a butt-wipey-specialist to following me around. How creepy would that be?
Oakman wrote:
Rudolph Giuliani
He's a Dimocrat that calls himself a Republican, ya know, like McCain is.
Oakman wrote:
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" ~ Thomas Jefferson
Congress insists on proving that one true, daily.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Oakman wrote:
Because I was in Asia, too
Yeah I know, just poking at ya. But for all you know the Japanese government set a butt-wipey-specialist to following me around. How creepy would that be?
Oakman wrote:
Rudolph Giuliani
He's a Dimocrat that calls himself a Republican, ya know, like McCain is.
Oakman wrote:
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" ~ Thomas Jefferson
Congress insists on proving that one true, daily.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
Congress insists on proving that one true, daily.
I have never seen any statistics, but it seems to me that one of Congress's favorite pastimes is finding another victimless crime to put on the books.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That is the most horrifying comment I have ever heard made. It was precisely such attititudes that made Hitler and Stalin possible.
I'd relax there big guy, Stalin and Hitler's policies can't exactly be catagorized as "helping people in all aspects of their lives". They sought more to control then to help.
Stan Shannon wrote:
A government that has the power to give you everything you need has the power to take everything you have. Personal responsibility, the wherewithall to care for one's own needs on one's own way, is a necessary prerequisite for freedom.
That couldn't be more false. A government only has the power to do what the people governed allow it to do. The people created the government.
I have to agree with Stan on this one. Many of the worst dictators were first seen as in high regard--that they would free their people, ease their problems...but as time goes on they became more power hungry. As far as the American government, it originally gave the most rights to the states themselves. Most have forgotten that we started as a Constitutionality country--the government should interfere as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. That does not mean giving everyone a hand up.
Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]
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Maybe to you. If a governments responsibilities do not lie within the people, where do they??
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So I should pay the same amount of "taxes" for someone who is much more sick than I am? If I go to the doctor once a year, and another 10 times a year, we should pay the same amount just based on income? I should pay for the care of someone who smokes knowing the risks, is overweight and has diabetes, high blood pressure...why should I pay for the lack of personal care for another?
Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]
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Hey, when I broke my wrist and all my fingers, I went to the hospital, they did all the tests and xrays immediately. Diagnosed my with temporary arthritis (septic or something) and had me in a specialized cast within a few hours. I paid nothing, I saw more then a couple of doctors and had to stay overnight, with consistent care and checkups from doctors. Never mind the pain medication needed from crushing a bone into powder. All this for the price of free, no wait no nothing. If you're friend is waiting 2 years for an MRI I don't know why, but no one in Montreal has those types of delays.
And I know someone in Canada who had cancer, had to wait 6 months for treatment, and then got bumped at the last minute for treatment because 'someone else was sicker.' I know someone in Australia who waited over SIX MONTHS for a basic hip replacement surgery.
Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]
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And I know someone in Canada who had cancer, had to wait 6 months for treatment, and then got bumped at the last minute for treatment because 'someone else was sicker.' I know someone in Australia who waited over SIX MONTHS for a basic hip replacement surgery.
Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]
leckey wrote:
I know someone in Australia who waited over SIX MONTHS for a basic hip replacement surgery.
Hip replacements are almost never urgent. My mother had a dodgy hip and, because she didn't like the idea of having surgery, chose to limp along with it for more than a decade. Wating SIX MONTHS for a hip replacement is not a big deal. Incidentally, dental care in Australia is almost entirely private, and I had to wait 4 months to get an appointment to see a (private) dental surgeon in his (private) rooms.
John Carson
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About $2800 out of pocket. By contrast in 2005 I was in the same hospital for 12 days with pneumonia and the bill was in the low $90ks and I paid nothing out of pocket. Different insurance though. Another point is my mother had her appendix out in 1942 and the bill for room and basic nursing care was $5 a day. :laugh:
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke