New Visual Studio built with WPF
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How pointless. It's an IDE for gods sake not some piece of crappy shareware that must have fancy graphics to compensate for the fact that it's not useful.
harold aptroot wrote:
How pointless.
Have you read the reasoning behind it[^]? Bottom line: the WPF editor will be faster, especially at handling large code files, than the GDI editor.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I suspect that virtualisation may play part of this. Also, WPF text documents tend to be a richer more flexible option.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
Yep. Have a read here[^], Rico states some reasons, including performance gains, why the editor will be WPF.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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For a start you can embed a audio/video comment in your code:) That was one of the samples I saw.
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The folks that know Rico know he's a hardcore performance freak. So a lot of people were surprised to learn the new code editor will be WPF. He responded to questions about this and said in this post[^]: the code editor for VS will be faster, especially on large code files. Also, the IDE will use less memory.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I read through most of the post. From what I can tell, what they want is a richer, better, more powerful editor. Fair enough. I'm 100% sure what WPF is going to give them here. The WPF text system is surely a HUGE improvement, at least in design, over what GDI gives you, but is that what they will be using? If not, and they write there own, then how much real benefit was WPF, unless what they really want is the databinding/properties API (which is really cool and useful)? Also he mentions: "But using DirectX, directly? Could be issues there -- like terminal server support for instance. WPF is a pretty good compromise. Remember, even games use a rendering engine to simplify their programming model. You can think of WPF as our rendering engine, it helps with the kinds of compositions we want to do." Unless I'm hugely mistaken WPF *IS* DirectX! That's how it does it's drawing under the hood, so either you get kick ass speed if you have a great video card that supports the latest DX, or it sucks monkey nuts because it's using the DX software renderer. It's my understanding that's also why text looks a little weird, because it's nothing more than pre-rendered glyphs that are then assigned to a texture map. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I'm dubious about this, but we'll see.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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harold aptroot wrote:
How pointless.
Have you read the reasoning behind it[^]? Bottom line: the WPF editor will be faster, especially at handling large code files, than the GDI editor.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I hadn't, but I still think it's way over the top. If you make a 1MB file filled with regions, it's your own fault that it's slow to scroll through. They could upgrade their algorithms without switching to WPF. It's not as if WPF is doing some kind of magic that they couldn't do normally. edit: the extensibility is nice though.
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Great. You need a DX12-compatible video card with a billion fracking shaders and pixel pipelines to get the File Open dialog to display. Just what we need...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Not all of those shaders need to be fracking at the same time.
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Not all of those shaders need to be fracking at the same time.
Oh, and you think the IDE team can get multithreaded shaders working? I scoff.
Software Zen:
delete this;
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I've seen some like that. Others, like Blu, feel really fast and snappy. Have you read Rico's answers about why WPF, and how perf will be affected? He's stated in this blog[^] that the WPF-based editor will be faster, especially on large files, than the GDI-based one.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Strange how devs tend to have erroneous preconceptions about this kind of thing. :)
Kevin
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Yep. Have a read here[^], Rico states some reasons, including performance gains, why the editor will be WPF.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Yeah, I guess this sums it up: "I know we are bound have some problems with WPF. We have to fix them, and who better than us? We've done medium sized WPF applications (e.g. Blend), and now we're going to drive a Flagship Application, maybe the 3rd largest suite in the world (I dunno exactly but it's up there), right down WPF Boulevard and we're going to Make It Work. It will be great for us, and for WPF itself, and then others can follow with confidence. There is no real alternative because we can't just sit here on our old UI and then expect to magically have a modern look in 10 years. And our friends in WPF-land are just as excited about this as I am... maybe more so if that's possible." About time!
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Doughboy – R.I.P. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
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You're not wrong. I'd probably be more accurate comparing its performance with VS2003, which was the last version of VS I found totally acceptable performance-wise.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
I agree 100% - VS 2003 was fast and didn't try to be too helpful. I put off upgrading for as long as possible for that reason
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. - Howard Aiken
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but but but... it will be shineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......... :rolleyes: [edit] but do you think this will let them add current line highlight? [/edit]
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"
I don't like shiny. I like medium grey, menues, and nice sharp pointy corners.
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Can anyone confirm or deny this atrocity? http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2008/12/02/visual-studio-today-tomorrow-and-beyond.aspx#9172277[^] Are they really planning on build an IDE with WPF? Am I missing something? Is this just old news that I've missed out on? //edit On further googling, it looks like this is a definite. Seems initially like not such a good idea, but I'll be curious to see how well it works.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
It's an excellent idea! And it's even an even better idea if all these grumpy WPF haters are right. Because that would force MS to "fix WPF" (if need there was) and make them wrong. This way MS is dog fooding WPF in a real world application, and performance improvement (IF need there was, which I don't believe particularly) will come... So using WPF to remake VS is not a marketing exrcise, it's a dog fooding exercise from which WPF will got stronger. And stringer it needs to be as Microsoft want (with reason enough) make it the foundation for future Windows UI!
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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Not all of those shaders need to be fracking at the same time.
If they are you get more in 9 months.
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Chineese Proverb] Jonathan C Dickinson (C# Software Engineer)
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Can anyone confirm or deny this atrocity? http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2008/12/02/visual-studio-today-tomorrow-and-beyond.aspx#9172277[^] Are they really planning on build an IDE with WPF? Am I missing something? Is this just old news that I've missed out on? //edit On further googling, it looks like this is a definite. Seems initially like not such a good idea, but I'll be curious to see how well it works.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
You can chrome-plate a monkey wrench... and it's STILL just a monkey wrench. I don't need glitz and glitter. I just need the thing to work. And please God... no ribbon in VS!
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Just for the editor? If so, what's the point?, Rather, what's the big deal, other than pretty text, assuming you don't mind WPF text rendering.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
I think you meant "WPF text smearing", didn't you? :sigh: The same UI implemented with WPF will be significantly faster than with Windows Forms. However, the VS performance problems rarely come from the rendering. For me, the main reason is a badly written Intellisense tangling our threads.
Best regards, BB http://bartoszbien.com
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Can anyone confirm or deny this atrocity? http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2008/12/02/visual-studio-today-tomorrow-and-beyond.aspx#9172277[^] Are they really planning on build an IDE with WPF? Am I missing something? Is this just old news that I've missed out on? //edit On further googling, it looks like this is a definite. Seems initially like not such a good idea, but I'll be curious to see how well it works.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
It's another reason to stick to Notepad.
If you can play The Dance of Eternity (Dream Theater), then we shall make a band.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Just a matter of priorities I suppose.
Yup. Ask for an upgraded GDI, and you get GDI+: half-assed abandonware. Ask for a PDF/Flash competitor, and you get WPF...
Shog9 wrote:
PDF
Oooh oooh - don't forget XPS in there!!!! It's the crazy Microsoft "let's re-invent the wheel (usually with added square-ness)" show!!!
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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I read through most of the post. From what I can tell, what they want is a richer, better, more powerful editor. Fair enough. I'm 100% sure what WPF is going to give them here. The WPF text system is surely a HUGE improvement, at least in design, over what GDI gives you, but is that what they will be using? If not, and they write there own, then how much real benefit was WPF, unless what they really want is the databinding/properties API (which is really cool and useful)? Also he mentions: "But using DirectX, directly? Could be issues there -- like terminal server support for instance. WPF is a pretty good compromise. Remember, even games use a rendering engine to simplify their programming model. You can think of WPF as our rendering engine, it helps with the kinds of compositions we want to do." Unless I'm hugely mistaken WPF *IS* DirectX! That's how it does it's drawing under the hood, so either you get kick ass speed if you have a great video card that supports the latest DX, or it sucks monkey nuts because it's using the DX software renderer. It's my understanding that's also why text looks a little weird, because it's nothing more than pre-rendered glyphs that are then assigned to a texture map. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I'm dubious about this, but we'll see.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Jim Crafton wrote:
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how this turns out. Personally I'm dubious about this, but we'll see.
You could always try it for yourself[^].
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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Can anyone confirm or deny this atrocity? http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2008/12/02/visual-studio-today-tomorrow-and-beyond.aspx#9172277[^] Are they really planning on build an IDE with WPF? Am I missing something? Is this just old news that I've missed out on? //edit On further googling, it looks like this is a definite. Seems initially like not such a good idea, but I'll be curious to see how well it works.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Maybe, just maybe, this means they'll fix WPF... Wouldn't that be nice...
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
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Can anyone confirm or deny this atrocity? http://blogs.msdn.com/ricom/archive/2008/12/02/visual-studio-today-tomorrow-and-beyond.aspx#9172277[^] Are they really planning on build an IDE with WPF? Am I missing something? Is this just old news that I've missed out on? //edit On further googling, it looks like this is a definite. Seems initially like not such a good idea, but I'll be curious to see how well it works.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
How about fixing some of the more heinous bugs: - A linker that doesn't spontaneously die, - A C++ intellisense implementation that works for more than 1/2 an hour at a time before simply stopping. - A configuration manager that in some way performs the tasks expected of it, instead of randomly turning project builds on and off when modified. - The elimination of spontaneous UI lockups that can have DevStudio go off into la la land for a minute at a time - A debugger that doesn't treat Step Over and Run 20% of the time (this one is brutally annoying.) - A fix for the new VSMDI on random operations bug when using TFS. - Less depenence on the .sln files, so that multi-person teams aren't constantly merging (read: redoing) changes. These issues are pushing me ever-closer to looking for a new IDE home. Even if they weren't as feature rich, or as integrated as Visual Studio, at least they wouldn't tease me with 1/2 implemented niceties, and constant performance hiccups (I know, threading and timing out network calls are hard to deal with. I don't care. I want my text editors snappy!)
Syntactic sugar leads to cancer of the semicolon.