SmallTalk Career change
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
When i was job hunting in 2007 I also had an offer from an insurance company coding in some unknown language. I declined the offer I think its a bad idea, cause how popular is SmallTalk? I've never heard of it before now... If you take the job and 2 or 3 years down the line you want to get out of there, how easily will you get another job in SmallTalk? And then you'd have been out of the C# & .Net game for 2 or 3 years, which will make it harder for you to get back into that. My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111 -
When i was job hunting in 2007 I also had an offer from an insurance company coding in some unknown language. I declined the offer I think its a bad idea, cause how popular is SmallTalk? I've never heard of it before now... If you take the job and 2 or 3 years down the line you want to get out of there, how easily will you get another job in SmallTalk? And then you'd have been out of the C# & .Net game for 2 or 3 years, which will make it harder for you to get back into that. My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111Your last point is valid, but SmallTalk, as little as it is used, is a widely recognised language, and, if I'm not mistaken, the first pure OO language.
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When i was job hunting in 2007 I also had an offer from an insurance company coding in some unknown language. I declined the offer I think its a bad idea, cause how popular is SmallTalk? I've never heard of it before now... If you take the job and 2 or 3 years down the line you want to get out of there, how easily will you get another job in SmallTalk? And then you'd have been out of the C# & .Net game for 2 or 3 years, which will make it harder for you to get back into that. My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111Harvey Saayman wrote:
My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Boo! Where on earth would we be if everybody did that?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
Smalltalk has a lot of cool features to it.
Charl wrote:
How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk?
A couple of weeks? Less? I'm assuming you're competent at understanding OO design and programming. Probably the biggest "struggle" will be the new API(s).
Charl wrote:
Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001)
Sure, why not? It's just a language after all, and it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Probably not. You can check out Squeak[^], that's a full blown Smalltalk environment to get a feel for the language. I would suppose the company is using something like IBM's Visual Age Smalltalk. Sounds interesting personally, a chance for a change of pace and something new.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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Harvey Saayman wrote:
My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Boo! Where on earth would we be if everybody did that?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Maybe that should have been "stick with what you know is relevant / sought after in the job market"
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111 -
Your last point is valid, but SmallTalk, as little as it is used, is a widely recognised language, and, if I'm not mistaken, the first pure OO language.
Brady Kelly wrote:
SmallTalk, as little as it is used, is a widely recognised language, and, if I'm not mistaken, the first pure OO language.
That still doesn't make switching from C# to SmallTalk a good career move ;P
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111 -
When i was job hunting in 2007 I also had an offer from an insurance company coding in some unknown language. I declined the offer I think its a bad idea, cause how popular is SmallTalk? I've never heard of it before now... If you take the job and 2 or 3 years down the line you want to get out of there, how easily will you get another job in SmallTalk? And then you'd have been out of the C# & .Net game for 2 or 3 years, which will make it harder for you to get back into that. My 5 cents? stick with what you know!
Harvey Saayman - South Africa Software Developer .Net, C#, SQL
you.suck = (you.Passion != Programming & you.Occupation == jobTitles.Programmer)1000100 1101111 1100101 1110011 100000 1110100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101101 1100101 1100001 1101110 100000 1101001 1101101 100000 1100001 100000 1100111 1100101 1100101 1101011 111111 -
I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
As suggested by Jim Crafton, check out some SmallTalk sites, get a feel for the language. At the end of the day, you are the only one really able to judge how quickly you can adapt. IMHO having SmallTalk on your resume can only be an advantage in future job applications (assuming, of course, that Harvey is not doing the interview :) ). [MOD] BTW check out Dolphin SmallTalk Community Edition[^], in addition to Squeek. [/MOD]
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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Smalltalk has a lot of cool features to it.
Charl wrote:
How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk?
A couple of weeks? Less? I'm assuming you're competent at understanding OO design and programming. Probably the biggest "struggle" will be the new API(s).
Charl wrote:
Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001)
Sure, why not? It's just a language after all, and it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Probably not. You can check out Squeak[^], that's a full blown Smalltalk environment to get a feel for the language. I would suppose the company is using something like IBM's Visual Age Smalltalk. Sounds interesting personally, a chance for a change of pace and something new.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Jim Crafton wrote:
it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Hear! Hear! Lots of Insignificant Silly Parentheses ;)
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
I have little to no experience with SmallTalk but I know that at one point it was something of a break through in the programming world, or is that Tcl/Tk I'm thinking of? Anyways, my point was regarding this:
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Visual Studio, no matter how much we rant about it is without a doubt, the single best IDE out there. I was once told, can't remember by who but they were right, it is the holy grail of IDEs.
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
As others have stated, I've never heard of SmallTalk. I would not switch from C# to SmallTalk. About 7-8 years ago I decided to work only with ASP.Net. A few years after that I decide to code in C# (instead of VB.Net). It has really worked out well for me. I have had to switch jobs a few times, but now I have a good pay / benefits, a short commute, fun work and job security. I suggest you stick with MS technologies such as .net, C#, SQL Server, Sharepoint and or Silverlight. If you are tired of MS stuff you could learn PHP, Python or Java. Programming with a major technology will help your career more than specializing in something not widely adopted.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Jim Crafton wrote:
it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Hear! Hear! Lots of Insignificant Silly Parentheses ;)
Well I don't know if it's fair to say "Insignificant". The Lisp grammar is really cool in an understated elegant kind of way. It's too bad that while it ends being rather elegant in theory, it's, IHMO, pretty damn hard to read practically, at least for mere mortals.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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I have little to no experience with SmallTalk but I know that at one point it was something of a break through in the programming world, or is that Tcl/Tk I'm thinking of? Anyways, my point was regarding this:
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Visual Studio, no matter how much we rant about it is without a doubt, the single best IDE out there. I was once told, can't remember by who but they were right, it is the holy grail of IDEs.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
ut I know that at one point it was something of a break through in the programming world,
Yes it was, it was developed, initially, by Alan Kay at PARC around 1971- or 72 (something like that), and the initial language design/specs fit on a single sheet of paper. The idea of a language being *completely* composed of nothing but objects, and not having explicit/static functions (using dynamic messages instead) was pretty damn nifty.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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Well I don't know if it's fair to say "Insignificant". The Lisp grammar is really cool in an understated elegant kind of way. It's too bad that while it ends being rather elegant in theory, it's, IHMO, pretty damn hard to read practically, at least for mere mortals.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
I wasn't knocking Lisp the language, it _is_ pretty cool, as you say. It's just that I find maintenance quite tough - easier to rewrite sometimes :)
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I wasn't knocking Lisp the language, it _is_ pretty cool, as you say. It's just that I find maintenance quite tough - easier to rewrite sometimes :)
Yeah, no doubt! Lisp, lilke Perl, is definitely a write-once-hope-it-doesn't-break-later kind of language. As much as I admire the ideas behind it, I'd personally dread getting stuck maintaining something based on it.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
ut I know that at one point it was something of a break through in the programming world,
Yes it was, it was developed, initially, by Alan Kay at PARC around 1971- or 72 (something like that), and the initial language design/specs fit on a single sheet of paper. The idea of a language being *completely* composed of nothing but objects, and not having explicit/static functions (using dynamic messages instead) was pretty damn nifty.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
OK, so I got my programming history right :cool:
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Smalltalk has a lot of cool features to it.
Charl wrote:
How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk?
A couple of weeks? Less? I'm assuming you're competent at understanding OO design and programming. Probably the biggest "struggle" will be the new API(s).
Charl wrote:
Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001)
Sure, why not? It's just a language after all, and it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Probably not. You can check out Squeak[^], that's a full blown Smalltalk environment to get a feel for the language. I would suppose the company is using something like IBM's Visual Age Smalltalk. Sounds interesting personally, a chance for a change of pace and something new.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Jim Crafton wrote:
Probably not
They're actually not bad - SmallTalk is predicated on having an IDE + (live!) object browser + (I think) refctoring. I've had a quick play with Seaside[^], which is a Smalltalk web framework that will run on Squeak and, while the UI seemed a bit X-windows, the capabilities on hand were pretty nifty.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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I am considering changing employers and one offer is for a SmallTalk developer in the insurance industry. My only exposure to SmallTalk has been 1 semester of CS and I preferred Java to SmallTalk. The employer is willing to train the new victim into the use of SmallTalk. I have a good grasp of OO concepts and patterns. How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk? Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001) What are SmallTalk prospects? Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?) Relevant responses would be appreciated.
SmallTalk as a language is all but dead, but many former SmallTalk developers work at (and manage) Java teams, and I bet many of them would be more than happy to employ someone with SmallTalk experience. If you like the prospect, go for the SmallTalk job.
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Smalltalk has a lot of cool features to it.
Charl wrote:
How long would it take to be comfortable using SmallTalk?
A couple of weeks? Less? I'm assuming you're competent at understanding OO design and programming. Probably the biggest "struggle" will be the new API(s).
Charl wrote:
Would anyone want to move across from C# to using SmallTalk? (using C# since 2001)
Sure, why not? It's just a language after all, and it's nowhere near as cumbersome (IMHO) as Lisp.
Charl wrote:
Are the tools any good ? (Compared to Visual Studio?)
Probably not. You can check out Squeak[^], that's a full blown Smalltalk environment to get a feel for the language. I would suppose the company is using something like IBM's Visual Age Smalltalk. Sounds interesting personally, a chance for a change of pace and something new.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Jim Crafton wrote:
Smalltalk has a lot of cool features to it.
I don't doubt that, but almost everything I dislike about software engineering came from the SmallTalk community: design patterns, refactoring, extreme programming. Luckily, they don't polute C++ any more - Java is their current playground.