Being bad at math
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Hello, Many times UIs are designed by developers. Usually this situation creates a design that follows the data instead of the User's needs/perception. I agree, it's irelevant whether the User understands the 1st row as row 0. To the User, it's the 1st row. 1 is always. Many times, great developers partner with UI designers to bridge the perception vs. behind-the-scenes infrastructure. It's always a good thing for developers to sit back and watch a complete stranger use their program... and take lots of notes. :)
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Hello, Many times UIs are designed by developers. Usually this situation creates a design that follows the data instead of the User's needs/perception. I agree, it's irrelevant whether the User understands the 1st row as row 0. To the User, it's the 1st row. 1 is always odd. Many times, great developers partner with UI designers to bridge the perception vs. behind-the-scenes infrastructure. It's always a good thing for developers to sit back and watch a complete stranger use their program... and take lots of notes. :)
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I think you have misunderstood. eleventyfour is the representation of the number to base 25!
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
Well in that case, if eleventyfour would have to be A4 as A would be the eleventh digit and four would be the fourth. Or do I need to convert the base ten number 114 to base 25, which would be 4D? Don't worry, I am not offended that I've misunderstood for it is through misunderstanding that we learn how not to understand and thus how to understand. (Ok, that's slightly akin to a quote from the invention of the light bulb about learning lots of ways not to make a light bulb, but it fits.)
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That's a great article, thank you!
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
it should be even ( even numbers are n = 2k ; odd numbers are n = 2k+1 ; k is a relative integer) so if you can write 0 as 2k+1 ten consider it odd :)
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Users don't think in terms of zero-th row. It's only programmers who think that there is a row number zero. Usually what I consider row number 0 becomes row 1 for the user. I think that's what Ennis's point was.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Users don't think in terms of zero-th row
I have only begun reading "GUI Bloopers 2.0", but it's clear that 'Interfaces must be in the end-user's mental model' is a major obsession with the author. Personally I would not take it quite so far, if there are certain technical terms which are worth their weight, better to teach the terms than talk around them. Of course I agree, if the GUI labels the top row as 1, it must be odd. This could be an argument for relabeling the top-row as zero at the end-user-interface, end-users ought to be able to cope with that.
pg--az
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Most likely they are using modulo (even = rowIndex % 2 == 0). Does it really matter? IMO: no. E.g. 0 % 2 == 0 (even) 1 % 2 == 0 (odd) 2 % 2 == 0 (even) ... for (int i = 1; i < size; i++) { if (i % 2 == 0) { final HTMLTable.RowFormatter formatter = gridex.getRowFormatter(); formatter.addStyleName(i, "kw-sortable-dark"); } }
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Naruki wrote:
Wikipedia has a whole page devoted to the topic
"5/7/09, is one of only six this century that will feature three consecutive odd numbers." -- Math Buffs Awed By Odd Day curious synchronicity, it does not seem the original post was deliberately intended to intersect with this anomaly.
pg--az
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Naruki wrote:
Wikipedia has a whole page devoted to the topic
"5/7/09, is one of only six this century that will feature three consecutive odd numbers." -- Math Buffs Awed By Odd Day curious synchronicity, it does not seem the original post was deliberately intended to intersect with this anomaly.
pg--az
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Zero based indexes seem to be kicking programmer's A**es even today. I am recently using a software package that allows row styles to be applied for even and odd rows. If you apply an even style the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... row receives the style instead of the correct row 2, 4, 6 etc. It would seem to me that the programmer that designed the underlying code used the index of a zero based index to determine if the row was even or odd. So let me pose this question: Do you think the first row should be considered even or odd?
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Supposed to be? The question is ridiculous in its formation. Evenness is based on the index of the row. The INITIAL row either has an index of mod 2 = 0 or mod 2 = 1. In some languages (VB6.0, for instance), the initial index of an array can be any integer, as long as indices increase from that value. The ordinal first value may have any index value in this case. You need to distinguish between the ordinal occurrence of a an object in a sequence and its index label. Proper classification allows proper prediction of behavior.
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Supposed to be? The question is ridiculous in its formation. Evenness is based on the index of the row. The INITIAL row either has an index of mod 2 = 0 or mod 2 = 1. In some languages (VB6.0, for instance), the initial index of an array can be any integer, as long as indices increase from that value. The ordinal first value may have any index value in this case. You need to distinguish between the ordinal occurrence of a an object in a sequence and its index label. Proper classification allows proper prediction of behavior.
And just what would you expect to happen if you applied and even row style to a list?
cpkilekofp wrote:
You need to distinguish between the ordinal occurrence of a an object in a sequence and its index label. Proper classification allows proper prediction of behavior.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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And just what would you expect to happen if you applied and even row style to a list?
cpkilekofp wrote:
You need to distinguish between the ordinal occurrence of a an object in a sequence and its index label. Proper classification allows proper prediction of behavior.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
And just what would you expect to happen if you applied and even row style to a list?
Using the package you've described, I'm not applying it to a "list", I'm applying it to the published interface of the indexed sequence exposed by the package. Its underlying implementation can be a list, array, database table structure, binary tree, or WHATEVER. The minute you try to apply "common sense" to how an interface should be used, you have lost the battle. You are using ALTERNATING styles, which the documentor of the interface has decided to label "even" or "odd". Don't get hung up on the terminology used by the documentor - the important thing to find out is which property needs to be set to apply the style to which set of rows in the alternates. Your argument is with the documentor, not with the programmer.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
And just what would you expect to happen if you applied and even row style to a list?
Using the package you've described, I'm not applying it to a "list", I'm applying it to the published interface of the indexed sequence exposed by the package. Its underlying implementation can be a list, array, database table structure, binary tree, or WHATEVER. The minute you try to apply "common sense" to how an interface should be used, you have lost the battle. You are using ALTERNATING styles, which the documentor of the interface has decided to label "even" or "odd". Don't get hung up on the terminology used by the documentor - the important thing to find out is which property needs to be set to apply the style to which set of rows in the alternates. Your argument is with the documentor, not with the programmer.
Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Mathematically the first row should have a style all of its own as Zero can't really be classed as either odd or even. It would make sense to style it as even though so that it had the contrasting style to row 1. Of course if you're going to allow the user a choice of what to do then you may end up asking the user what colour you want for the first third and fifth row etc and then set that to the even row style behind the scenes.
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Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
oh...were you joking? Frankly, after thirty years programming at various times in both C and Basic, I got so sick of the zero vs. one first-index debates that I'm worn out on the topic and tend simply to respond reflexively. Your question is simply another form of this argument. Turning your last statement back at you, on this particular topic I don't know why you bother, either.
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oh...were you joking? Frankly, after thirty years programming at various times in both C and Basic, I got so sick of the zero vs. one first-index debates that I'm worn out on the topic and tend simply to respond reflexively. Your question is simply another form of this argument. Turning your last statement back at you, on this particular topic I don't know why you bother, either.
To define an algorithm that operates in a non-deterministic manner based on the language and/or libraries used is clearly flawed. (excepting algorithms whose purpose is to be non-deterministic) Using the index of an array to determine the cardinality of the members is ludicrous. In any event, if I asked an employee to highlight the first row of a document and he or she highlighted the second row and tried to argue any justification I would fire them on the spot.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Users don't think in terms of zero-th row
I have only begun reading "GUI Bloopers 2.0", but it's clear that 'Interfaces must be in the end-user's mental model' is a major obsession with the author. Personally I would not take it quite so far, if there are certain technical terms which are worth their weight, better to teach the terms than talk around them. Of course I agree, if the GUI labels the top row as 1, it must be odd. This could be an argument for relabeling the top-row as zero at the end-user-interface, end-users ought to be able to cope with that.
pg--az
I think you give end-users way too much credit! Having moved into programming from tech support, my experience is that many users are stumped by the power switch! Asking them to comprehend a zero-based array/list would be similar to asking a giraffe to design a particle accelerator!
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To define an algorithm that operates in a non-deterministic manner based on the language and/or libraries used is clearly flawed. (excepting algorithms whose purpose is to be non-deterministic) Using the index of an array to determine the cardinality of the members is ludicrous. In any event, if I asked an employee to highlight the first row of a document and he or she highlighted the second row and tried to argue any justification I would fire them on the spot.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Yes, but realistically, how are you going to get the opposing camps to agree? Besides, you CONTINUE to confuse "first" with "item with index of 1". "Odd" and "even" obviously refer to characteristics of the value of the index, not the value of the cardinality. Get used to it - every interface in .NET and Java use zero-based indices. As for your scenario, why are you insisting that programming interfaces follow the rules of conversational discourse?? That is truly absurd.
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Yes, but realistically, how are you going to get the opposing camps to agree? Besides, you CONTINUE to confuse "first" with "item with index of 1". "Odd" and "even" obviously refer to characteristics of the value of the index, not the value of the cardinality. Get used to it - every interface in .NET and Java use zero-based indices. As for your scenario, why are you insisting that programming interfaces follow the rules of conversational discourse?? That is truly absurd.
Again, just not worth it.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane