good programmer
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Whoo hoo! I'm a good programmer! Ah well, too bad your theory is wrong. You can never become a good programmer without working in a variety of environments with a variety of programmers who are better than you. Plus, although I certainly have time to develop whatever I like, I'm not motivated to do so. And even if I did, without any sort of peer review, I'd never have anyone to point out any shortcomings in it.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
h well, too bad your theory is wrong.> What did you just prove that?You can never become a good programmer without working in a variety of environments with a variety of programmers who are better than you.> I agree. but at some point you will lack behind in latest development unless you don't work for a sweatshop (don't get me wrong they can be reputable firms).Plus, although I certainly have time to develop whatever I like, I'm not motivated to do so. And even if I did, without any sort of peer review, I'd never have anyone to point out any shortcomings in it.> You haven't seen firefight and long hours mate, if you do, you'd have trouble finding time to actually have a date.
dev
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
h well, too bad your theory is wrong.> What did you just prove that?You can never become a good programmer without working in a variety of environments with a variety of programmers who are better than you.> I agree. but at some point you will lack behind in latest development unless you don't work for a sweatshop (don't get me wrong they can be reputable firms).Plus, although I certainly have time to develop whatever I like, I'm not motivated to do so. And even if I did, without any sort of peer review, I'd never have anyone to point out any shortcomings in it.> You haven't seen firefight and long hours mate, if you do, you'd have trouble finding time to actually have a date.
dev
devvvy wrote:
You haven't seen firefight and long hours
Sure I have, when I was employed. Such are learning experiences any good programmer (or whatever) needs; anyone who hasn't been tested by adversity can't truly claim to have mastered his craft. It would be like a pool (billiards) player who practices at home constantly, but never enters a tournament.
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Which is why my job title is listed as 'computer engineer', not 'programmer', not 'software engineer', or any of the fluffy bunny titles like 'technology evangelist' or that sort of crap. I spent five long hard years earning a degree in computer engineering (Wright State University, class of '84, go Raiders!). I've spent the 25 years learning my trade from some of the best (and some of the worst) people in the business. I believe these two factors give me the right to call myself an engineer, as opposed to the self-assumed term that most people use.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]I'm an ECE myself so I know exactly what you mean. I don't have the same wealth of experience that you have Gary, but like you I'm learning from both the good and the bad and thankfully, because of this here thingy called CP, that learning has accelerated. I take pride in being an Engineer. Its a mindset. You strive to learn and always be better, you create, you build you develop and improve and I mean both as a person and the work. Most importantly, when the midden heap hits the windmill, when things don't go as they were meant to, when I make a mistake, I own up to it.
If the post was helpful, please vote! Current activities: Book: The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
If I can do that while coping with a (very regular, unfortunately) 3 day migraine once a month
Oh wow, does that sound awful X|. I sympathize, as my migraines have only come under control in the last five years or so. Given that it's so regular, do you have a recognizable trigger for it?
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^]There's no specific trigger - form what I can tell they are hormonal in origin. A couple of days before an attack I get extremely tired ("Yawning for England", quite literally!) which I've learnt to recognise as a warning sign and throttle back a bit - which helps to mitigate the attack a little and prevent it turning from 3 days of discomfort (during which I can function on some level, provided I rest enough) to 3 days of sheer hell (during which I will be in bed doing nothing). I'm kinda used to the routine nowe, fortunately.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
There is literally tons of misconception regarding the 'Programmer' as a JOB and the 'Programmer' as something OTHER THAN A JOB. The JOB of being a programmer has to do primarily with Results (which translates to Money) and secondarily with skills & knowledge (if you're fortunate to have that kind of boss). The programmer as a hobbyist is primarily about personal development, achievement and self esteem for the sole purpose of either becoming a professional one day or simply to have fun. Nobody says you can't have both but in real life, Work you do in the office (that means, making money for your boss) and Training you do at home and on your own free time (either to get better at your job or if you don't have any social life). The conclusion is that IT in general can be either a tool or a toy. Skills and knowledge by themselves is like having the ability to joggle with shovels. It's very impressive but no matter how many different moves and tricks you can do with them, that just won't cut it if your job is to DIG holes !!! PS: Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results).
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You are right. It is a twisted logic :)
I disagree. I have long hair and a beard. Customers tend to dislike that(and they say people don't discriminate). The company therefore have a not so good programmer but very good with comunication dealing with the customers. All interviews are recorded via dictaphone so I know what happened and Customers can email me directly. I am not saying I am a great programer I am just saying that a great programmer do not need to interact with clients. I believe without the limitaions that general employment give you you should be able to experiment more and hense be able to further yourself more making you a better programmer. When I get home after a particularly bad day I do not want to see a computer let alone learn a new thing about it.
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I'm an ECE myself so I know exactly what you mean. I don't have the same wealth of experience that you have Gary, but like you I'm learning from both the good and the bad and thankfully, because of this here thingy called CP, that learning has accelerated. I take pride in being an Engineer. Its a mindset. You strive to learn and always be better, you create, you build you develop and improve and I mean both as a person and the work. Most importantly, when the midden heap hits the windmill, when things don't go as they were meant to, when I make a mistake, I own up to it.
If the post was helpful, please vote! Current activities: Book: The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I take pride in being an Engineer
That's probably one of the most important aspects of the whole idea. It's the notion that engineering is a discipline that you apply to create work that meets a set of standards. When you do that well, you feel pride in the result.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
when the midden heap hits the windmill
I like that variant on the phrase :-D. Gives things a nice sense of scale :laugh:.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
There's no specific trigger - form what I can tell they are hormonal in origin. A couple of days before an attack I get extremely tired ("Yawning for England", quite literally!) which I've learnt to recognise as a warning sign and throttle back a bit - which helps to mitigate the attack a little and prevent it turning from 3 days of discomfort (during which I can function on some level, provided I rest enough) to 3 days of sheer hell (during which I will be in bed doing nothing). I'm kinda used to the routine nowe, fortunately.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
My triggers are stress and lack of sleep, which unfortunately tend to happen at the same time. Like you, I've learned to recognize the 'harbingers of doom'. In my case, my emotions go for a rollercoaster ride a day or so in advance. It's like I'm manic-depressive, except on a 2-3 hour cycle. The manic portion of it is great; I've written some incredible amounts of great code in those states. In the depressive portion I'm little better than an ambulatory rutabaga. Fortunately, that's enough of a sign I can either rest or medicate as indicated and head the worst of it off.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
I am a really good fighter pilot - top dog. Holding down a lousy programmer job because I communicate well - one day I WILL FLY!
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Hows about this twisted logic: If you're not good at marketing, you're not good at communicating. If you're not good at communicating, you're never going to understand the user. If you can't understand the user, you're not a very good programmer. Ergo, they're not good programmers.
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Not true. I can communicate very well with users and they with me. Marketing on the other hand is totally different animal. It is basically cold sales calls, even good sales people have trouble marketing themselves, because it is selling yourself. It means putting your self out there to be shot down as someone judges you as incompetent, looking wrong, sounding wrong and every other nasty judgment that can be made. I know some people who aced their interviews and were the lousiest programmers I ever met. They couldn't communicate with users because they never listened except to their own voice! I work well with users because I know how to listen to them, not how to sell them, though I have learned how to do that too - selling the code is much easier then selling the self.
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There is literally tons of misconception regarding the 'Programmer' as a JOB and the 'Programmer' as something OTHER THAN A JOB. The JOB of being a programmer has to do primarily with Results (which translates to Money) and secondarily with skills & knowledge (if you're fortunate to have that kind of boss). The programmer as a hobbyist is primarily about personal development, achievement and self esteem for the sole purpose of either becoming a professional one day or simply to have fun. Nobody says you can't have both but in real life, Work you do in the office (that means, making money for your boss) and Training you do at home and on your own free time (either to get better at your job or if you don't have any social life). The conclusion is that IT in general can be either a tool or a toy. Skills and knowledge by themselves is like having the ability to joggle with shovels. It's very impressive but no matter how many different moves and tricks you can do with them, that just won't cut it if your job is to DIG holes !!! PS: Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results).
"Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results)" Huh, so all excellent programmers are physicists at heart?
"Sir, I protest. I am NOT a merry man!"
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
And what does employment status have to do with someone being a good/great/mediocre programmer? I've seen some great programmers employed as well as unemployed. I've seen just as many living in the US as there are in Europe/Asia... And then there's the question of what defines a good programmer??? What you think defines a good programmer (unemployed) to me means he/she is just unemployed without regard to programming skills. In short, the answer is: 42
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
Back in the 70's when programmers where "Barn Stormers" and Artists you could get away with being unEmployed and free to experiment. These days Programming is like making movies. Have you ever seen a movie with only one person in the credits. This comes best in a work enviroment. This old mans opinion is that you need a good team to build modern software. The team must have people skills, Engineering skills, artists, Programmers, Finance , Ect.. and a team leader to keep all the wheels going.
modified on Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:18 AM
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Hows about this twisted logic: If you're not good at marketing, you're not good at communicating. If you're not good at communicating, you're never going to understand the user. If you can't understand the user, you're not a very good programmer. Ergo, they're not good programmers.
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Flawed logic. A good programmer with poor communication and marketing skills is such a ubiquitous concept it is a stereotype.
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devvvy wrote:
wait... perhaps a simpler example: how do you explain britney, she's (well *was*) in demand.
In some circles she still is. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesGood grief, guys. These massively flawed analogies are making Aristotle spin in his grave. I understand where you are coming from with the unemployed bit... I miss the early 80s when I used to rush home from Jr high as fast as I could so I could work on bit blitting in assembler on my Tandy 1000. You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point. As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
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I think it's obvious. If you're good, you will be in demand.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
I agree. One might even loose for a worse programmer in a job interview for the lack of marketing skills, but eventually this person will land on a job. A good programmer won't fail everytime. A good programmer is good at logic, and therefore will learn what went wrong in previous interviews and will try to make it better next time.
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Good grief, guys. These massively flawed analogies are making Aristotle spin in his grave. I understand where you are coming from with the unemployed bit... I miss the early 80s when I used to rush home from Jr high as fast as I could so I could work on bit blitting in assembler on my Tandy 1000. You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point. As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
BrienMalone wrote:
As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
I completely agree. I started coding when I was 15 years old. By the age of 21, I had done a lot of coding. But much of this coding was for fun or very small enterprises (Uncle Ben's grocery store). At that time, I thought I was really good and knew everything. My mistake, BIG time. When I landed on my first job in a factory, I got a lot of demands and challenges I never had faced before. That forced me to pursue specific skills, no more kids game. By that time, I knew how much coding skills I lacked. Beeing employed not only made me a much better programmer, also forced me to code continuously wich is very good to gain experience. The only drawback, I think, is less time to learn new technologies and update your skills. I, for example, have little time to catch up with .Net 3.5 and 4.0 features. Fábio
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
No, not unless they choose to be...