Absolutely disgusting
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Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues. Either you believe the courts can disregard the meaning inherent in the constitution or you do not. If you do, you should be happy about this. The constitution is now entirely meaningless as a means for we the people to hold our own governmetn to account either fiscally or socially. Libertarians simply cannot have it both ways.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues.
Can you provide an example?
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Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Admit what? I have always maintained that, at the very least, capitalism was fettered by our social institutions, primarily those arising from our Christian principles.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
That happened to buggy whip manufacturers and one-night stables. It would have been painful, yes. But this is going to be no less painful, nor will it save very many jobs, if any. What it does do is clog up the works so someone who could create a car or car company doesn't have the niche that Chryseler or GM fillos to fit into. The two dinosaurs will die, slowly, and someday that niche may open up - but not in time to help the nation recover from this mess in the near future.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Admit what? I have always maintained that, at the very least, capitalism was fettered by our social institutions, primarily those arising from our Christian principles.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Admit what?
I never used the word 'admit'. In fact, I was saying that because you've always said the same things, I knew how you would respond.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Christian Graus wrote:
Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
I disagree. Much of this is the direct result of excessive government meddling, mostly on behalf of the the very union that played a major role in the destruction of these care companies. Unfettered capitalism would have had both GM and Chrysler in bankruptcy proceedings in January, not on Government life support until the government could twist the rules so that the secured bondholders could be sacrificed to the union. It is especially infuriating that the union will gain nothing to speak of here (shares of stock in a Chines car manufacturer to fund their health benefits that should have been funded from Union dues and premiums which were spent electing politicians and building glof resorts instead). All the same factories will close, with the jobs moving to China. Paid for by taxpayers. What a crock.
Oh, the end result is the government running in to clean the mess. But, Stan's idea that capitalism with no control will always be to the benefit of the workers, is just insane.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues.
Can you provide an example?
Roe v Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, Texas v. Johnson ...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Christian Graus wrote:
or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
That happened to buggy whip manufacturers and one-night stables. It would have been painful, yes. But this is going to be no less painful, nor will it save very many jobs, if any. What it does do is clog up the works so someone who could create a car or car company doesn't have the niche that Chryseler or GM fillos to fit into. The two dinosaurs will die, slowly, and someday that niche may open up - but not in time to help the nation recover from this mess in the near future.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Yeah, I think they are making the wrong call, but they are trying to stop short term pain to society as a whole. Pain which must come out of a system of pure capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Admit what?
I never used the word 'admit'. In fact, I was saying that because you've always said the same things, I knew how you would respond.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
In fact, I was saying that because you've always said the same things, I knew how you would respond.
Yeah, I like to say things that are correct. It's a bad habit of mine apparently.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Roe v Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, Texas v. Johnson ...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Roe v Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, Texas v. Johnson ...
What in that historic museum piece was violated by these cases? One would think that burning a 'flag' would be ones 1st Amendment [cough] 'right' wouldn't it?
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I'm not the one twisting reality to accomodate my world view. Libertarians do support the courts rejection of its historic role in American civilization. Every single one of you guys have admitted that openly, repeatedly and proudly. Anyone who dares protest the court's social agenda gets shoved into Oakman's 'sharia law' box in the corner.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Bullshit, Stan. You can't provide a single example where either I or Jon have said any such thing. Your tin foil hat has slipped over both your eyes and ears.
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OK, I've added the Supreme Court to the list of places to burn to the ground when the system crumbles. I'll put it... right between Jimmy Carter's peanut farm and George Soros' alter to Satan.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Mark Twain "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
What about the Georgia Guidestones[^]?
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What about the Georgia Guidestones[^]?
Yeah, I doubt they will burn.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Mark Twain "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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Christian Graus wrote:
In fact, I was saying that because you've always said the same things, I knew how you would respond.
Yeah, I like to say things that are correct. It's a bad habit of mine apparently.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
*grin* I was not criticising you in this instance. I don't agree with much of what you say, but this time I was just saying that I knew you were going to say it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Oh, the end result is the government running in to clean the mess. But, Stan's idea that capitalism with no control will always be to the benefit of the workers, is just insane.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
But, Stan's idea that capitalism with no control will always be to the benefit of the workers, is just insane.
When did I ever say that? Capitalims does not even exist to benefit workers. It simply provides the conditions essential to maximize the opportunities people have to benefit themselves. It isn't perfect, it tends to have downturns, and is predictably unpredictable. But it is the only system which can provide the long term economic growth that allows for a stable middle class. It does require strongly held social institutions to avoid becoming destructive to essential human liberties, but in that it is not distinquishable from any other means of maintaining human society.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Roe v Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, Texas v. Johnson ...
What in that historic museum piece was violated by these cases? One would think that burning a 'flag' would be ones 1st Amendment [cough] 'right' wouldn't it?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
One would think that burning a 'flag' would be ones 1st Amendment [cough] 'right' wouldn't it?
It never was before 1989.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Bullshit, Stan. You can't provide a single example where either I or Jon have said any such thing. Your tin foil hat has slipped over both your eyes and ears.
Rob Graham wrote:
You can't provide a single example where either I or Jon have said any such thing. Your tin foil hat has slipped over both your eyes and ears.
You were doing it just yesterday(?) arguing that universal health care isn't inherently unconstitutional. Eventhough there is absolutely nothing in the constituion giving the federal state the power to do any such thing.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues. Either you believe the courts can disregard the meaning inherent in the constitution or you do not. If you do, you should be happy about this. The constitution is now entirely meaningless as a means for we the people to hold our own governmetn to account either fiscally or socially. Libertarians simply cannot have it both ways.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
It's my opinion that boiled down to it's essence the classical libertarian philosophy is very much similar to the ideals you claim to be about. Ideally, it diverges with classical conservatism only on the shear number of laws aimed at controlling peoples private lives. I think there is room for both, and it should lead to healthy arguments rather than the passive aggressive nonsense we see every day in this country. In my opinion, as a group, our contemporary politicians have no identity other than the ones the party they claim to support and the donors that support the party want them to have. The system failed.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Either you believe the courts can disregard the meaning inherent in the constitution or you do not. If you do, you should be happy about this.
I wholly support the constitution. However we haven't had a president in my lifetime that does. Do you realize that since and including Regan the office of the president has issued more than 400 signing statements in vast contrast to the grand total of less than 80 prior. This is wholly co-opting the constitution by direct interference with the way laws were intended to be written in our country. The constitution has been rendered meaningless by allowing these acts of expanding executive power. So, if you want to wax about the disregard of the constitution by any group you need to look at both parties.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Libertarians simply cannot have it both ways.
But neocons and democrats can?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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What's your opinion regarding Chrysler's CEO stating that this is the only way to avoid liquidation? If its liquidated, won't those same bond holders receive less? Or will they have more due to them being secured debt holders?
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
If its liquidated, won't those same bond holders receive less?
It's my understanding that the bond holders would be first in line from the proceeds of the sale. This new arrangement I believe strips them of their contractual and legal rights.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Because you've now reached a point where everything is in the crapper, and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp