How to get into IT?
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I was thinking along the lines of 2 candidates applying for an entry level position at Mayberry Software, Mayberry NC. Both are fresh out of school and neither has any work experience. Both appear fairly competent and neither out-shines the other. Candidate A has an associate degree from Cletus Junior College, Bootstrap TX. Candidate B has an associates degree from Rufus P. Merriweather Community College, Berferd NC. The man doing the hiring has traveled through Berferd NC and heard from a neighbor about the fine education her daughter is getting there. Guess who is going to get the job?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I don't give a rat's ass since I know too many people from prestigious places that couldn't actually write code worth a damn, but can give you lectures about the theory of writing code.
Agreed. The degree gets you in the door - only your abilities keep you inside.
I agree, though I've heard that Cletus Junior College is incredible and that Boostrap TX is like no other college town. :)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
One word: Apply Apply for junior level positions, internships, even help desk jobs. I'm not sure how it works where your from, but the following is my experience. I started school and quickly realized that what they were teaching was years behind what was actually being used. You don't learn technical skills in school. You learn theory. And "life skills", maybe. In my, admittedly biased, opinion a degree is VASTLY over-rated. Networking however, is not. Go to local tech meetings, talk to people in the book stores who are looking at the same language books you are, etc... I've been to three different "schools". Community college, a state 4 year university and a tech school. I've worked in the industry, in one form or another since I was 18. Yes, I started out as a help-desk grunt for a big corporation. I'm 33 years old now and I'm a senior developer at an international company. But wether you decide to go to uni, or to go it on your own remember one thing. You can never stop learning about the craft. Ever. Your education is your own responsibility. Take it upon yourself to learn at every opportunity. You can get free copies of almost every development tool your interested in. Learn how to use them, play with them, write programs with them and finish the programs. Never stop reading, but remember to practice what your reading. The internet is a wonderful place and sites like Code Project are fantastic. But you don't learn how to do something by reading about it. You just learn that it's possible. Read it, and then do it for yourself. It's been over 10 years since anyone asked me about the lack of degree on my resume and I have job opportunities presented to me all the time.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Go to university or else your resume won't even make it to the hiring manager. Secondly, get a part time job. I worked in Sainsburys supermarket for 4 years while going to university. Stacking shelves, working the register, stocking the freezers with frozen meat products... you get the picture. It isn't pretty, but it's beer money and Sainsburys had a very nice flexible work schedule: One evening a week and one day of the weekend, plus as much overtime as I wanted during busy times such as Christmas and Easter - which really worked out great, because there's no classes during those times. Lots of my friends had part-time jobs in bars, but I had no desire to be in a bar and have to be sober. ;) Thirdly, get some proven programming experience under your belt. If you can show prospective employers working models of your projects, they will be quite impressed. Build a website in ASP.NET or something like that. Or get some good quality articles on CodeProject. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as it shows you're keen, knowledgable and *want* to work. I landed my first job out of university because the hiring manager liked the design of the icon on my demo app! He couldn't care less what the app actually did, he was just impressed with the icon! :laugh:
The StartPage Randomizer - The Windows Cheerleader - Twitter
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
True some people can get really good jobs without degrees, but the odds are not in your favor. Both Electron and Joe have the right idea. Extended education is an investment in yourself that is going to cost you money up front for long term gain. Pay what you can on your tuition semester to semester and get additional loans or earn scholarships for the remaining. There are so many scholarships per year that students don't even apply for. Another option is to get a job (albeit prob. lower in pay) that has tuition reimbursement. After you get your degree either the employer will bump you up accordingly or you'll get a job somewhere else. Employers have various reasons for wanting a bach. degree. Sometimes its HR not knowing to look for anything else, sometimes its that the employer knows you can stick it out for several years while working towards a goal, whatever the reason........"the paper" helps to get your foot in the door. Even if you can only take 1-2 classes a semester, you can work towards that goal. In the meantime study up on cert tests and brush up and improve upon your skill set. During an interview you can say, I have these certs, I am proficient with these programming areas, and am currently working towards a 4 year degree "in what ever discipline" at such and such school. Its better to be working towards some goals than not have anything going; esp. in the current world recession with some many unemployed skilled workers. You may have to pay your dues for a while (IE intern job or lower pay) because your not in the field already, may lack certain skills, and there are lot of people on the market right now. But keep your hopes up and stay motivated to improve yourself while others may be discouraged, things will work out.
"There's no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people." - Mr. Garrison
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One word: Apply Apply for junior level positions, internships, even help desk jobs. I'm not sure how it works where your from, but the following is my experience. I started school and quickly realized that what they were teaching was years behind what was actually being used. You don't learn technical skills in school. You learn theory. And "life skills", maybe. In my, admittedly biased, opinion a degree is VASTLY over-rated. Networking however, is not. Go to local tech meetings, talk to people in the book stores who are looking at the same language books you are, etc... I've been to three different "schools". Community college, a state 4 year university and a tech school. I've worked in the industry, in one form or another since I was 18. Yes, I started out as a help-desk grunt for a big corporation. I'm 33 years old now and I'm a senior developer at an international company. But wether you decide to go to uni, or to go it on your own remember one thing. You can never stop learning about the craft. Ever. Your education is your own responsibility. Take it upon yourself to learn at every opportunity. You can get free copies of almost every development tool your interested in. Learn how to use them, play with them, write programs with them and finish the programs. Never stop reading, but remember to practice what your reading. The internet is a wonderful place and sites like Code Project are fantastic. But you don't learn how to do something by reading about it. You just learn that it's possible. Read it, and then do it for yourself. It's been over 10 years since anyone asked me about the lack of degree on my resume and I have job opportunities presented to me all the time.
I agree. Help desk and tech support positions can be a good way to get your foot in the door in order to prove yourself and gain valuable experience. I started out in support, answering calls for the world most popular word processor for an outsource support firm. Not a lot of fun but it got me enough experience out of the gate to move to bigger and better things. Many support roles require nothing more than an A+ Certification as a starting qualifier.
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Unfortunately it's not interest free, it's low interest though, base rate + 1% pa. So if you don't get that job it's pretty daunting to have all that grow. I graduated 2 years ago before the tuition fees hike, and only paid £1k a year tuition but even on top of this, you need about another £1k a term (3 of those a year) to simply survive, probably another £500 if you want a life while you're there too, and you won't get a student loan for any of that. I currently get docked £42 a month of my paycheck automatically to pay mine back (decided by SLC, but lump payments are available), and have about £9k left to pay. A lot of people get the impression that being a student is an easy choice and an excuse to party for 3 years, those who go into uni thinking this will suffer when they leave. Personally I had the time of my life while I was there, balanced work/play well and wouldn't trade my time there for anything! Worth every penny.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Ouch. Things have really gone south in the last 12 years. Makes my time look easy.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Well, I can consider myself very lucky. While I was at the tech school I did always sent my CV everywhere, I mean, EVERYWHERE, thus one day I receive a call, after a 10 minutes interview I got a job as a junior level dev. This first job was a crappy one (my boss was as as***, working on holidays, +9 hours per day, and so on), but I understand that this was the price to pay to gain some experience. Then at the office I met some friends who seeing on me some value and after the project got successfully finished, they offered me a better job in a dev position as well. The second job wasn't a lot of better than the previous one, but wasn't so bad either. And that was the constant over the years...some friend contacted me and offered me a better job. And here I'm, at my 5th job which is the greatest thing that had ever happened to me. In my way to where I'm many things had happened to me, but all of them (good and bad ones) had helped me to become a better professional in all those years. I'd never finished the tech school, at my second job I got the notice that I was going to be a dad (22 years old, can you imagine that?), so the bills were increasing and I need to work full time and do my best to become relevant inside the companies were I worked (you know, someone who is not disposable). Next month I'll start again the tech school and I hope to finish it, I just need to make some paperwork and if everything goes well I'll end it in one year or so. My advice, follow your instincts, do what you think is good for you, READ a lot about software development (codeproject has some great articles that would help you), and also return some love to the community, that would pay you back sooner or later. Good luck.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Step 1: test the waters Get info on both - ask people in the respective fields at 1,5,10 years on the job What appeals most? Step 2: test your aptitude Pick up entry level book on both - head hurts more after reading the first 3 chapters of which? pick the other If programming still apeals do self test Get the free tools you need, basic book, subscription to codeproject and start writing code. Ask relevant questions here *tip( use URGNT HLP PLEEEZ!!! message headers for faster response ) If in 3-6 months you can write Tetris (your own code, not copy and paste) then you have programming mindset and aptitude for self study - get first job someone will hire you in programming even if it's for pennies a day. Make friends with best programmer there and be prepared to shell out for beer, at least weekly, until you osmosize enough. Give it at least 1-2 years. After two years you should be a fairly competent junior programmer, with enough pay to allow you to be independent. (what to do for money until then? sell your services to the many middle aged women looking for ...) If you can't hack it on your own but still feel the call of the compiler, enroll into university and pass as many certifications as you can (these would seem to give you credibility in lieu of actual practical know-how) Don't worry, if you're not a total retard, in time you ammas functional knowledge (despite the certifications) If not, get pc, various books on IT and start experimenting at home - when cocky enough, find internship in IT department wherever you can. If in 6 months you don't get full time offer, go elsewhere. I would say go with c#/.net/sql server - with these you should be able to find employment fairly easily (or not..) with such advice there is no way you will fail - good luck Check your aptitude for both
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Sorry for the lack of replies, I got called away to have tea, and then got distracted by something shiny. The general consensus seems to be that university is the way to go, building up experience along the way. Either way I choose to go, the replies have been quite enlightening. Thank you
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job?
Life is a risk. You could be completely debt free, end up with a partner for whom money management is a meaningless term and when you split up end up having the buy her half of the house (for which she never really contributed to the mortgage), pay of her credit card and be saddled with the debt of a wedding that never happened because you only realised with 53 hours to go she was a psycotic bitch! Bottom line: Go to university. Get a degree. In the long run it will most likely work out better for you.
Computafreak wrote:
but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year?
Meh! £5000 a year is cheap. I pay over twice that per year in taxes. (not including stealth taxes) Incidentally, I pay in the region of £2500 per year for my continuing education. That's for books, user groups, community conferences (because I can't afford the big commerical conferences) and so on. Find yourself a local user group and join it (many are free, so the only cost is the travel and your time). You can find more information about user groups in the UK here[^].
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Every choice you make is a gamble in this regard. Something that worked well for someone else won't necessarily work for you at all. The industry changes enough that if I were starting out today I'm not sure if the things I did to get where I am would work. If the only thing stopping you from getting the degree is the fear of getting in to debt then that isn't a good enough reason. Most people have some kind of debt and the world to a great extent runs on it. Wait until you want a piece of real estate. Then this loan won't seem like anything. Ultimately, what are you afraid of ? I don't believe they put people in jail for failing to repay a debt anymore. So you are worried about having to rebuild your credit after not being able to pay something off- but that simply means a drop in lifestyle. Guess what you get when you don't get your career of choice?? Effectively you are hampering your career from the beginning by not having that piece of paper. And when you have a job that is bad you are more likely to stay in it or be stuck in it. Bad economic times lead to reduced expectations for you until you are around 30 with around 5+ years experience to point to. And you are sort of indicating a lack of faith that once you have the degree that you won't be able to pay for it. Have you thought about why you lack this faith in yourself? Also, you can hide out at college while the economy blows through these bad times. Another idea. You could see if the military offers college payment in exchange for service. We have programs like that in the US and you can even get yourself into situations where they do some of the IT training. Anyway; if you insist on going around rather than through there are some ways you could try. Most of these involve giving your work away for free for a period. 1. Build an application that people might need. Set it up as shareware and get it placed out there at the shareware sites. Do this several times. 2. Talk to some of the charities you approve of, sometimes they have projects where they can only afford the tools but not the labor. 3. Seriously consider help desk positions. You should expand your experience in PHP programming, Linux admin, MySQL admin just because the more hats you can wear the more likely you are to be able to accomplish getting a job. Eventually you may want to leverage one of these skills into a certification of some kind. Then the HR people will pass you along more often. And most importantly, you need to
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I hear you. Once I got decent (properly decent) at programming, I went to look for a junior position. I gave up after 2 years, as most of the interviews were quite insulting, at least here in South Australia; almost nobody asked any technical question at all. They tend to prefer people with degrees, even in the kind of companies you'd never expect that, and despite relevant experience, so I'd say getting a degree is a good bet. (but still a bit of a bet) But getting a job in IT (ie sysadmin) is quite easy, even I managed to get one :) lots of small companies need one, and they generally don't know much about 'em, so they'll pretty much hire the first guy who is confident and doesn't look too much like a slacker ;P Heck, the guy before me was an Indian, and they said he didn't got anything fixed. I dunno what it's like to work as a developer, though I hear most are unsatisfied, but I landed a job as an IT dude at a ~20 people company, and there I got to learn how a business runs. After a few months I discovered a big software need that the company had, which is quite badly fulfilled by current products, so I negotiated with my boss for me to spend most of my time at work on writing some better software for them to solve their problems, while I'd keep full rights and ownership of my software, and I got a pay rise. Two months later I recruited the manager there, who is a brilliant guy, to join my to-be company that will sell my soon-to-be-launched software. So it didn't turn out all that bad or lame after all. Hope it all goes OK. I guess you just gotto start somewhere, even if it isn't a brilliant or promising start...
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
You could do what I did - find someone offering an apprenticeship, work for them 4 days a week and attend a day release course at your local technical college. Where in the UK are you?
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The very best thing you can do is buy a computer, get Visual Studio Express (or buy Standard which covers 99% of what most developers need), buy some books and teach yourself how to program. Even if you go to University, this is still the very best way to learn. Be very willing to move and relocate and look for companies willing to hire you for cheap. Get experience. Got to another company and so forth. This method may take you a little longer to get to high salary and will cut you off from some jobs, especially at big companies that use a degree just to filter applicants, but you won't end up with massive debt and you will likely be a far better developer than someone college trained (especially if they do no learning on their own, like far too many people posting questions in the forums.) I work with a guy who knew an awful lot before he went to college. Now he knows a little more and has to make $300 a month payments on his student loans. I think he wasted his time. Had he spent six hours every evening teaching himself, he'd know just as much, if not more, and not have all the debt. (And I can't repeat enough how much people don't care about degrees in my region of the US.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Skip the Visual Studio - grab linux and open source and you don't have to spend a dime learning languages. A lot depends on what he wants to do. Developer: study languages including Java, C++, C#, etc. Web: PHP, .NET, Javascript, HTML Admin: choices - Unix or Windows (or both) Unix - bash shell, Linux, Perl, Python, reg expressions Windows - start studying for MS tests Testing: some testing frameworks, theories of testing (black box, white box) I know of 4 people in IT without a degree. (Two have gotten their degree AFTER getting the job -- Phoenix University) The degree helps, but ultimately what matters if you can do the job or not. Besides - how often do you deal with Pumping Lemmas and DFA/NFAs?
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Well I've just finished a four year course at Sheffield Hallam Uni, and now work as a Developer hoping to move on to better and bigger things. My course had a year out, which was what really helped me land my job. With regards to debt. I'm in 16k of student loads debt - which is really nothing to worry about. It's NOT going to affect your credit rating. No ballifs are going to come knocking on your door for it. It gets written off when your 65. Don't let that stop you going to uni. Its one of the best things I ever did! The life, the experience, the teaching. Personally I think nowadays, developing/programming (or whatever we're calling it today) it more about than just writting code. You need to understand the business, the processes, be able to work with people etc etc.. A lot of which is taught in uni (was for me..) And besides the 16k is debt is on £70 a month (5% of my wages!) It's barely something your going to notice, and it's taken out automatically. So it's just something you'll never have to worry about. Done and done.
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Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
To a large extent I'd agree with that as what the company needs is experience rather than paper but you also have to remember that you need to get past two categories of people to get a job. 1. Recruitment agencies/ HR departments who don't understand IT and don't really know what they're looking for so just look for something like an MS certificate on a CV because its an easy thing to filter by 2. The actualy developers/ IT managers who think the MS Cert is a good start but aren't that bothered and only care if you can actually do the job Unfortunately you have to make it past the first set before you get to talk to the second. I've spoken to a lot of recruiters (got made redundant last year) that had been given a list of things the person is supposed to know but have no understanding what any of them meant
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
First: Think where you want to work. You may work as developer in software company or somewhere else. From my experience sometimes it's better to work in IT in some other industry (EMS is my choice). Second: Get your degree. I'm fine with Bachelor's degree in CS (nope, it's not CouterStrike), but it depends on market. If you choose to work outside software industry, you may benefit from some other education like enginnering, industrial automation, robotics or RF technology. Again, from my experience somebody with degree in field that maches company profile AND can write the software may be very valuable. Third: build your experience from roots. Start building the portfolio by designing websites for friends, publish some freeware/shareware, get involved in some open source project, etc. Then, find some lousy job, to get some "commercial" experience. Find some startup or some small semi-pro "company". They usually pay small money but also have small expectations. When you get the degree, you will have also some commercial experience. Another hint: Some companies that require degree would also hire people with a year of university left. I hope I'll succeed. --- JK.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science
Apply for them anyway and explain that while you don't have a degree you could still be the right candidate. Job ads detail the candidate the employer would like to get, but I know from experience that if someone is the right person they can still get the job without ticking all the boxes listed in the ad. For instance here we're in the middle of recruiting a new developer but when I asked my boss what level we were recruiting at he said that he was flexible - if the right junior showed up he'd employ them. I'm not saying that all those job ads could be filled by people with no experience or degrees but some of them might be happy to take you on. Having said that, still get yourself a degree as well. I don't have one - I did an HND at night school - and I really feel the lack of it as the rest of my team all have computer science degrees. Unfortunately I no longer have the energy to do another qualification in my spare time!
Regards Nelviticus
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Unfortunately it's not interest free, it's low interest though, base rate + 1% pa. So if you don't get that job it's pretty daunting to have all that grow. I graduated 2 years ago before the tuition fees hike, and only paid £1k a year tuition but even on top of this, you need about another £1k a term (3 of those a year) to simply survive, probably another £500 if you want a life while you're there too, and you won't get a student loan for any of that. I currently get docked £42 a month of my paycheck automatically to pay mine back (decided by SLC, but lump payments are available), and have about £9k left to pay. A lot of people get the impression that being a student is an easy choice and an excuse to party for 3 years, those who go into uni thinking this will suffer when they leave. Personally I had the time of my life while I was there, balanced work/play well and wouldn't trade my time there for anything! Worth every penny.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Suggested reading: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/24/nicholas-barr-graduate-tax[^], http://www.studentloan.co.uk/[^] Yes, it's a loan. However, as you rightly point out, the interest rate is very low. Also, you only have to pay it off when your salary exceeds a certain level. If you remain unable to pay it off for 25 years, it is written off. Ok, so I grant that, for someone who expects to earn above the threshold (as any development job should be), it will dent your future net income. But the safety net of the student loan still benefits you - it protects against job loss - and is much safer than other loans (e.g. mortgage). I hear your point about needing money from elsewhere; even in the days of means-tested grants, many parents were expected to cough up, and recently Universities have put a lot of effort into improving bursery schemes and such. As someone else said, it's an investment. Whether it's a worthwhile investment is up to you. Looked at financially (which isn't the only investment to consider) - the question is whether the cost will be offset by a higher salary. That's a difficult question to answer. One factor which comes to mind is the current state of the economy; jobs will be difficult to find now, but should be more readily available in 4? years time when you graduate. That said, as other posters have said, a degree isn't a free entry into a developer job. Companies will be looking for other experience. Consider defering University entry by a year and applying for a 1 year placement in a development company. That will give you very good experience for your resume, will boost your finances, will get a foot in the door at that company (e.g. for summer work, or for a permanent job), and will give you the opportunity to consider whether Uni is the right choice.