How to get into IT?
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job?
Life is a risk. You could be completely debt free, end up with a partner for whom money management is a meaningless term and when you split up end up having the buy her half of the house (for which she never really contributed to the mortgage), pay of her credit card and be saddled with the debt of a wedding that never happened because you only realised with 53 hours to go she was a psycotic bitch! Bottom line: Go to university. Get a degree. In the long run it will most likely work out better for you.
Computafreak wrote:
but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year?
Meh! £5000 a year is cheap. I pay over twice that per year in taxes. (not including stealth taxes) Incidentally, I pay in the region of £2500 per year for my continuing education. That's for books, user groups, community conferences (because I can't afford the big commerical conferences) and so on. Find yourself a local user group and join it (many are free, so the only cost is the travel and your time). You can find more information about user groups in the UK here[^].
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Every choice you make is a gamble in this regard. Something that worked well for someone else won't necessarily work for you at all. The industry changes enough that if I were starting out today I'm not sure if the things I did to get where I am would work. If the only thing stopping you from getting the degree is the fear of getting in to debt then that isn't a good enough reason. Most people have some kind of debt and the world to a great extent runs on it. Wait until you want a piece of real estate. Then this loan won't seem like anything. Ultimately, what are you afraid of ? I don't believe they put people in jail for failing to repay a debt anymore. So you are worried about having to rebuild your credit after not being able to pay something off- but that simply means a drop in lifestyle. Guess what you get when you don't get your career of choice?? Effectively you are hampering your career from the beginning by not having that piece of paper. And when you have a job that is bad you are more likely to stay in it or be stuck in it. Bad economic times lead to reduced expectations for you until you are around 30 with around 5+ years experience to point to. And you are sort of indicating a lack of faith that once you have the degree that you won't be able to pay for it. Have you thought about why you lack this faith in yourself? Also, you can hide out at college while the economy blows through these bad times. Another idea. You could see if the military offers college payment in exchange for service. We have programs like that in the US and you can even get yourself into situations where they do some of the IT training. Anyway; if you insist on going around rather than through there are some ways you could try. Most of these involve giving your work away for free for a period. 1. Build an application that people might need. Set it up as shareware and get it placed out there at the shareware sites. Do this several times. 2. Talk to some of the charities you approve of, sometimes they have projects where they can only afford the tools but not the labor. 3. Seriously consider help desk positions. You should expand your experience in PHP programming, Linux admin, MySQL admin just because the more hats you can wear the more likely you are to be able to accomplish getting a job. Eventually you may want to leverage one of these skills into a certification of some kind. Then the HR people will pass you along more often. And most importantly, you need to
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I hear you. Once I got decent (properly decent) at programming, I went to look for a junior position. I gave up after 2 years, as most of the interviews were quite insulting, at least here in South Australia; almost nobody asked any technical question at all. They tend to prefer people with degrees, even in the kind of companies you'd never expect that, and despite relevant experience, so I'd say getting a degree is a good bet. (but still a bit of a bet) But getting a job in IT (ie sysadmin) is quite easy, even I managed to get one :) lots of small companies need one, and they generally don't know much about 'em, so they'll pretty much hire the first guy who is confident and doesn't look too much like a slacker ;P Heck, the guy before me was an Indian, and they said he didn't got anything fixed. I dunno what it's like to work as a developer, though I hear most are unsatisfied, but I landed a job as an IT dude at a ~20 people company, and there I got to learn how a business runs. After a few months I discovered a big software need that the company had, which is quite badly fulfilled by current products, so I negotiated with my boss for me to spend most of my time at work on writing some better software for them to solve their problems, while I'd keep full rights and ownership of my software, and I got a pay rise. Two months later I recruited the manager there, who is a brilliant guy, to join my to-be company that will sell my soon-to-be-launched software. So it didn't turn out all that bad or lame after all. Hope it all goes OK. I guess you just gotto start somewhere, even if it isn't a brilliant or promising start...
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
You could do what I did - find someone offering an apprenticeship, work for them 4 days a week and attend a day release course at your local technical college. Where in the UK are you?
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The very best thing you can do is buy a computer, get Visual Studio Express (or buy Standard which covers 99% of what most developers need), buy some books and teach yourself how to program. Even if you go to University, this is still the very best way to learn. Be very willing to move and relocate and look for companies willing to hire you for cheap. Get experience. Got to another company and so forth. This method may take you a little longer to get to high salary and will cut you off from some jobs, especially at big companies that use a degree just to filter applicants, but you won't end up with massive debt and you will likely be a far better developer than someone college trained (especially if they do no learning on their own, like far too many people posting questions in the forums.) I work with a guy who knew an awful lot before he went to college. Now he knows a little more and has to make $300 a month payments on his student loans. I think he wasted his time. Had he spent six hours every evening teaching himself, he'd know just as much, if not more, and not have all the debt. (And I can't repeat enough how much people don't care about degrees in my region of the US.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Skip the Visual Studio - grab linux and open source and you don't have to spend a dime learning languages. A lot depends on what he wants to do. Developer: study languages including Java, C++, C#, etc. Web: PHP, .NET, Javascript, HTML Admin: choices - Unix or Windows (or both) Unix - bash shell, Linux, Perl, Python, reg expressions Windows - start studying for MS tests Testing: some testing frameworks, theories of testing (black box, white box) I know of 4 people in IT without a degree. (Two have gotten their degree AFTER getting the job -- Phoenix University) The degree helps, but ultimately what matters if you can do the job or not. Besides - how often do you deal with Pumping Lemmas and DFA/NFAs?
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Well I've just finished a four year course at Sheffield Hallam Uni, and now work as a Developer hoping to move on to better and bigger things. My course had a year out, which was what really helped me land my job. With regards to debt. I'm in 16k of student loads debt - which is really nothing to worry about. It's NOT going to affect your credit rating. No ballifs are going to come knocking on your door for it. It gets written off when your 65. Don't let that stop you going to uni. Its one of the best things I ever did! The life, the experience, the teaching. Personally I think nowadays, developing/programming (or whatever we're calling it today) it more about than just writting code. You need to understand the business, the processes, be able to work with people etc etc.. A lot of which is taught in uni (was for me..) And besides the 16k is debt is on £70 a month (5% of my wages!) It's barely something your going to notice, and it's taken out automatically. So it's just something you'll never have to worry about. Done and done.
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Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
To a large extent I'd agree with that as what the company needs is experience rather than paper but you also have to remember that you need to get past two categories of people to get a job. 1. Recruitment agencies/ HR departments who don't understand IT and don't really know what they're looking for so just look for something like an MS certificate on a CV because its an easy thing to filter by 2. The actualy developers/ IT managers who think the MS Cert is a good start but aren't that bothered and only care if you can actually do the job Unfortunately you have to make it past the first set before you get to talk to the second. I've spoken to a lot of recruiters (got made redundant last year) that had been given a list of things the person is supposed to know but have no understanding what any of them meant
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
First: Think where you want to work. You may work as developer in software company or somewhere else. From my experience sometimes it's better to work in IT in some other industry (EMS is my choice). Second: Get your degree. I'm fine with Bachelor's degree in CS (nope, it's not CouterStrike), but it depends on market. If you choose to work outside software industry, you may benefit from some other education like enginnering, industrial automation, robotics or RF technology. Again, from my experience somebody with degree in field that maches company profile AND can write the software may be very valuable. Third: build your experience from roots. Start building the portfolio by designing websites for friends, publish some freeware/shareware, get involved in some open source project, etc. Then, find some lousy job, to get some "commercial" experience. Find some startup or some small semi-pro "company". They usually pay small money but also have small expectations. When you get the degree, you will have also some commercial experience. Another hint: Some companies that require degree would also hire people with a year of university left. I hope I'll succeed. --- JK.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science
Apply for them anyway and explain that while you don't have a degree you could still be the right candidate. Job ads detail the candidate the employer would like to get, but I know from experience that if someone is the right person they can still get the job without ticking all the boxes listed in the ad. For instance here we're in the middle of recruiting a new developer but when I asked my boss what level we were recruiting at he said that he was flexible - if the right junior showed up he'd employ them. I'm not saying that all those job ads could be filled by people with no experience or degrees but some of them might be happy to take you on. Having said that, still get yourself a degree as well. I don't have one - I did an HND at night school - and I really feel the lack of it as the rest of my team all have computer science degrees. Unfortunately I no longer have the energy to do another qualification in my spare time!
Regards Nelviticus
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Unfortunately it's not interest free, it's low interest though, base rate + 1% pa. So if you don't get that job it's pretty daunting to have all that grow. I graduated 2 years ago before the tuition fees hike, and only paid £1k a year tuition but even on top of this, you need about another £1k a term (3 of those a year) to simply survive, probably another £500 if you want a life while you're there too, and you won't get a student loan for any of that. I currently get docked £42 a month of my paycheck automatically to pay mine back (decided by SLC, but lump payments are available), and have about £9k left to pay. A lot of people get the impression that being a student is an easy choice and an excuse to party for 3 years, those who go into uni thinking this will suffer when they leave. Personally I had the time of my life while I was there, balanced work/play well and wouldn't trade my time there for anything! Worth every penny.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
Suggested reading: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/24/nicholas-barr-graduate-tax[^], http://www.studentloan.co.uk/[^] Yes, it's a loan. However, as you rightly point out, the interest rate is very low. Also, you only have to pay it off when your salary exceeds a certain level. If you remain unable to pay it off for 25 years, it is written off. Ok, so I grant that, for someone who expects to earn above the threshold (as any development job should be), it will dent your future net income. But the safety net of the student loan still benefits you - it protects against job loss - and is much safer than other loans (e.g. mortgage). I hear your point about needing money from elsewhere; even in the days of means-tested grants, many parents were expected to cough up, and recently Universities have put a lot of effort into improving bursery schemes and such. As someone else said, it's an investment. Whether it's a worthwhile investment is up to you. Looked at financially (which isn't the only investment to consider) - the question is whether the cost will be offset by a higher salary. That's a difficult question to answer. One factor which comes to mind is the current state of the economy; jobs will be difficult to find now, but should be more readily available in 4? years time when you graduate. That said, as other posters have said, a degree isn't a free entry into a developer job. Companies will be looking for other experience. Consider defering University entry by a year and applying for a 1 year placement in a development company. That will give you very good experience for your resume, will boost your finances, will get a foot in the door at that company (e.g. for summer work, or for a permanent job), and will give you the opportunity to consider whether Uni is the right choice.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
You've got several options - you are not limited to following just one path: Get a degree. You *will* get a job eventually, so don't worry about the loan. It is an investment in your future. Check out the terms of the loan - you may find they're more favourable than you expect. The main thing about a degree is *not* the subject knowledge itself (although a CS degree may help get you into IT), but is the experience you get along the way. You'll learn to think on a higher level; to research, analyse and study. A degree isn't an easy option but it is worthwhile. I certainly don't regret mine. Of course, there are options other than a degree. You could go for an HND, for example - but it won't have the employability of a degree. You might also consider getting yourself certified as a Microsoft professional. The cheapest way to get an MCP exam is self study. It will cost you (a) the price of a good book (b) the cost of the exam itself and (c) a *lot* of personal study time. Certs are not as useful as they were in the past, but they can help (and are lot better than blank CV). That's what I did and it helped me. You need to get some experience. Grab Visual Studio Express or Netbeans and teach yourself to program. Then program. For example, you could write articles for CP, work on open source software or write a useful little app for a local community group or just to give away on the internet. In my view (and I have been involved in a bit of recruitment) experience is *far* more important than qualifications. At the end of the day, a piece of paper shows an employer that you can learn (which is good in itself). Experience shows that you can do the job (which is better - you can't possibly do unless you can learn as well). You can always apply for jobs with the experience you have now. You never know. I've got jobs in the past that I wasn't qualified for (on paper). You could coinsider getting into something else and move into IT later. I trained as a teacher, ended up as a technical demonstrator, moved into general IT and then specialised as a developer. That said, I might well have been better off skipping the teaching and going straight down the IT route. One thing that is important. I don't think anyone can be a good developer unless they are motivated to do self-study and to explore the craft in their own time. If you can't do that, development isn't your true vocation. If you can... you're starting out on the most exciting career path that there is. Enjoy the ride! All the best.
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The very best thing you can do is buy a computer, get Visual Studio Express (or buy Standard which covers 99% of what most developers need), buy some books and teach yourself how to program. Even if you go to University, this is still the very best way to learn. Be very willing to move and relocate and look for companies willing to hire you for cheap. Get experience. Got to another company and so forth. This method may take you a little longer to get to high salary and will cut you off from some jobs, especially at big companies that use a degree just to filter applicants, but you won't end up with massive debt and you will likely be a far better developer than someone college trained (especially if they do no learning on their own, like far too many people posting questions in the forums.) I work with a guy who knew an awful lot before he went to college. Now he knows a little more and has to make $300 a month payments on his student loans. I think he wasted his time. Had he spent six hours every evening teaching himself, he'd know just as much, if not more, and not have all the debt. (And I can't repeat enough how much people don't care about degrees in my region of the US.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
one thing that i did in the beginning was to find a small business that wanted their own website w/database, or in my case, they had an existing website they wanted to "upgrade". they really didn't want to pay the $80 per hr for development, so i did it for peanuts.the small business got what they wanted & i got a bit of "street cred" as a developer, plus it's nice in an interview to drop a couple of dot-com names as "proof of ability". and i also went the "community college" route which really no one seemed to mind, but i did get an oracle cert as well. but, really, only HR cares about degrees. ability & experience go a long way with 99% of the employers i've interviewed with. that's my 2-cents
rik_b
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
As an employer, given the opportunity to hire: 1) a cheap noobie, 2) a cheap graduate, 3) a cheap experienced non-graduate, or 4) a cheap experienced graduate, which would you choose? The market is flooded. Companies now have the opportunity to choose the cream-of-the-crop at bargain prices/benefits. Companies don't want to train someone just to lose the person to another company. They want experience too. They can interview, 'till they're blue, and they do. Experience is king. A piece of expensive paper (a diploma) simply places you in a different pile on a desk. ... My two cents ... :)
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As an employer, given the opportunity to hire: 1) a cheap noobie, 2) a cheap graduate, 3) a cheap experienced non-graduate, or 4) a cheap experienced graduate, which would you choose? The market is flooded. Companies now have the opportunity to choose the cream-of-the-crop at bargain prices/benefits. Companies don't want to train someone just to lose the person to another company. They want experience too. They can interview, 'till they're blue, and they do. Experience is king. A piece of expensive paper (a diploma) simply places you in a different pile on a desk. ... My two cents ... :)
Just after I posted, I came across this link: Job Seekers: Get Ready for the "Character" Interview http://www.cio.com/article/print/495920
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Perhaps you could study part-time while working in a junior development role. That way you will mitigate your expenses. By commencing a course, a prospective employer may see you in a more favourable light. Writing CP articles will also definitely help. Do not underestimate the power of the published article! I read a book recently called Outliers. In it, the author explains that to become an expert in any field takes approximately 10,000 hours of practice/work. It's a long journey, but one better started sooner than later. Good luck with your decision. Cheers, Daniel
Daniel Vaughan Blog: DanielVaughan.Orpius.com
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
As some people said here, you must first decide whether you want to get into IT or become a Software Engineer. These are two totally different things, related only because they have something to do with computers. If you want to do IT (the easiest one I think): IMHO a vendor certification like MCSE will get you into the door more so than a degree, though degree wouldn't hurt. This is what computertraining.com is teaching. I think this one is easier to get into because employers ask for specific things that you've been taught, and you're going to be doing those specific things. Software Engineer: You pretty much have to get a degree in Computer Science, unless you're really lucky and you know someone. You also have to have analytical skills. The degree actually does very little to prepare you for real-world development job, so you have to either get lucky and get one of the very few entry level positions, or get very lucky and get internship/COOP experience while you're still in college. Did I mention that analytical skills and abstract thinking is what you need, versus specific skills for IT? This does pay more.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I would look at some non-paid tempr. positions first. It might be helpful to get a first hand-on experience on what happening in real commercial software development. Three months in such a place may open your view on what you need to strengthen or learn. After what you may put this experience into your resume and be more brave in looking for the job.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I agree with everything my colleagues on this post are saying and advising. I am a senior software engineer and have been in the field for 35 years so I have seen everything and anything the field can throw at someone. Corporate IT, as a number of the posts state, is a nightmare for someone who wants to create decent software. However, it is where most techs land up. Your degrees, no matter where you attend university, are worthless after a few years except as an addition to your resume... or if you have your eye on management. Hiring managers are looking for experience over and above everything else except where nepotism is concerned. This is what I would suggest if you want to make this field your career and survive it to retire with a sense of satisfaction and contentment: 1) Go to a 2-year school and get good training in programming and systems development. Most techs coming out of 4 year schools these days (especially the good ones) have no idea how to design systems and applications. They come out with a lot of detailed knowledge which is mostly worthless in the real world of development and no common- sense on how to approach things. IT university training has become just like business education... mostly nonsense. 2) DO NOT ENTER THE CORPORATE WORLD except as a last resort. Start on your own and when you feel confidant enough advertise your services as a freelancer\independent developer. You can begin with several options but mine would be... Start your own technical-blog to get your articles out on the Internet... as well as your name. Develop your own web-site and make it elegant and simple. This work will automatically display your capabilities. Offer your services as an intern without any pay to get references and commercial experience. Its what college students used to do years ago. Now they all want to be paid and no one wants to pay their "dues" to enter the field. Not only does business have opportunities but so too does the world of game programming and there are plenty of inexpensive and free options to take advantage of to test your skills as a game-developer. However, many of these opportunities will take persistence to get to them as a new person in the field. Don't be dismayed by the rough going. This is a rough field and it doesn't get easier for any of us no matter how long we have been in it. 3) DON'T study every detail about writing programs but develop what you enjoy dev
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Just as an FYI, in the US, a Bachelor's Degree is given by a certified institution, whether a University, Community College or Trade School. Trade Schools typically don't offer a Bachelor's degree (or get certified and then reduce their teaching staff. For anything but computer repair, trade schools in the US are largely worthless, with some individual schools shining, but you'd only know that by doing a lot of research.) My experience for hiring in the US is that hiring managers don't care about a degree if you have any experience, even on your own. I'm one; I just care about whether you can do your job. Of the best developers I know (i.e. ones I would hire immediately, without question), only two have CS degrees. About 40% have degrees from the college of engineering, usually EE (from universities where the computer science department is entirely separate from the college of engineering) the rest have a Math degrees, an entirely unrelated degree or no degree at all.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Any programmer can write code that the computer understands, a good programmer writes code that people understand. I have noticed that programmers with a BS diploma understand better and deeper the concepts about the how and why of software engineering. The IT market has been corrupted and people who can write a subroutine in VB6 declare themselves to be programmers. Of course, like everything, there are exceptions. :) I think that the school you attend is not the problem, the key is the amount of time you are willing to invest in studying and practicing. And that is true, HR people does not have clue about recruiting good technical people and as long as you disguise your CV, you have opened the first door.:cool: